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bu$h admits that there were explosives in the world trade center

topic posted Thu, January 18, 2007 - 12:03 PM by  chris
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on september 15 of last year, in the white house rose garden, bu$h admitted that there were explosives in the world trade center. the press conference was given before the Military Commissions Act was passed, and bu$h was basically selling the american people torture. this was not his usual verbal blunder, but four coherent statements in reference to explosives used in the wtc on september 11.

this is the first time that explosives have been part of the official story. millions of dollars were spent concocting half-baked theories that blamed the collapses on jet fuel weakening the central cores of the buildings.

the big problem with explosives being part of the official story is that it brings up the disturbing questions of how al-qaeda could have possibly wired three buildings for perfect controlled demolitions. this is also exacerbated by reports of mysterious powerdowns for "cable upgrades" in the week before 9-11, as well as bomb-sniffing dogs being removed from duty 48 hours before the attacks. also of note, the CEO of Securicom, Inc., the company that provided security for WTC, is none other than Marvin Bu$h, W's little brother.

I actually [first-hand] read the transcript of the speech on the white house's website before it was promptly pulled from the archives.

want to hear it for yourself? listen here:

i have seen very little about this issue in the media, even the 9-11 indie sites. this is the smoking gun. people should be storming wa$hington!!! help spread the word.

yr comrade,
chris
posted by:
chris
SF Bay Area
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  • sorry for the omission, the site is:

    www.shoutwire.com/viewstory...molitions_

    --chris
    • www.shoutwire.com/viewstory...molitions_

      sorry...this is the correct url that was omitted from the previous post. and it's actual audio. hear the liar and murderer in his own voice....

      • Rumsfeld made a similar slip:

        www.prisonplanet.com/article...down.htm

        Much more telling, actually.

        -troy
        • if there's ever justice on that thing, it's going to be a loooooooooong time from now.

          (hey troy.)
          • Big surprise! I'm glad it came out of the horses, or sould I say Pigs, mouth this time!
            Heya, I know it's important to be conscious of what's really going on and thank you so much for helping keep us informed, it's much appreciated! but now, can we focus a little more on the posative things that are happening in the world? Anyone have any news on something that has changed for the better or know of any awesome things that have happened lately? I would love to hear about it!
            • Positivity

              Wed, January 24, 2007 - 7:02 PM
              Things that went well for me over the past several days:

              I was never hungry for more than a few minutes,
              If I was thirsty, I had something to drink,
              I wasn't terribly lonely,
              despite my terrible habit of being disorganized, I'm moving back to Kansas City OK thus far,
              I didn't freeze to death, despite the fact that it's been BITTER cold in my neck of the woods,
              my car hasn't run out of gas,
              response to my resume hasn't been completely lackluster,
              I haven't suffered a heart attack shoveling snow,
              and my personal favorite - my spirit remains unbroken.

              Much love to those who need it, and an extra does to those who don't.
              • Re: Positivity

                Thu, January 25, 2007 - 12:18 PM
                I think that the fact that i can hear edits in this bush commentary...and the fact that it is being used for someone running for office....makes this a really weak peice of evidence in the 9/11 conspiracy theories. I really think he meant to say exploSIONS instead of explosives there.....but who knows? Maybe he slipped....

                Or maybe conspiracy theorists are a little out to lunch on some of the facts though:
                www.popularmechanics.com/techn...2.html
                • Re: Positivity

                  Thu, January 25, 2007 - 4:25 PM
                  some replies to these posts:

                  first, of all this is not a "weak piece of evidence" posited by conspiracy theorists. i, firsthand, went to the whitehouse.org site where i read the transcript of the speech right from the horse's mouth. it was promptly pulled when they realized that this "error" could not be whitewashed so easily. and, not it's not a freudian slip, he made four coherent sentences about the the Shaik stating that they wanted the "explosives" to trap people in the upper floors of the building.

                  that popular mechanics article does what most corporate-owned media lies & deceptions do in addressing the 9-11 truth movement: they attack the weakest part of the evidence, and then assume that the rest of the evidence is also erroneous. also, the editor-in-chief is the cousin of a homeland security head honcho. follow the web... follow the money...

                  if you look merely at the FACTS, there is enough evidence to convict the bu$h administration & dept of defense, et al. of the crimes of 9-11.

                  over 600 people were arrested in relation to 9-11. all but a handful have been released. there has only been ONE convicton of the crimes of 9-11.

                  positivity? i am an optimist. but if we continue the trend of inaction, apathy, and ignorance, it won't be long before our lifestyles as we know it will come to an end. we must continue to do the work on ourselves, become at peace with ourselves...that truly is the medicine for the planet. but so much depends upon our ability to communicate widely to the people. information and awareness are our weapons. lorin's spring tour is entitled "underground communication,"

                  dedicated to keeping the net free. go to savetheinternet.com and sign the petition to preserve net neutrality. it takes one minute, and you can do something now!

                  the crimes of 9-11 are merely the tipping point. do your homework, read the writing on the wall...

                  and most of all, fucking enjoy yourself!!!

                  yr comrade, chris
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Positivity

                    Thu, January 25, 2007 - 4:28 PM
                    and justice is not automatically delivered...

                    you have to demand it, sometimes fight for it....

                    --chris
                    • Re: Positivity

                      Thu, January 25, 2007 - 7:45 PM
                      Thank you for that Chirs! I totally agree! And I'm sighning that petition right now damnit! :)
                      ~Love & Light
                      • Re: Positivity

                        Thu, January 25, 2007 - 8:50 PM
                        my apologies////
                        hmm..well ya can always find facts to contest facts that might be facts and the whole factual thing gets damn confusing doesn't it... i do not know shit about engineering........ reading up on 9/11 is fun now and again...
                        here is some good info on my blunder

                        www.serendipity.li/wot/pop_...s.htm<
                        www.oilempire.us/popular-m...s.html<
                        911research.wtc7.net/essays/pm/<
                        • Re: Positivity

                          Fri, January 26, 2007 - 12:36 PM
                          Pick up the new issue of skeptic.

                          You guys sound like a bunch of morons.

                          Squibs... were not used.

                          Compressed air blew out the windows.

                          Who the *FUCK* is an engineer? Who is an architect?

                          Until a site endorses it that is reputable, you might as well say fuck all.... read the skeptic article....
                          here
                          www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-09-11.html

                          architects, demolition experts....
                          no one believes it.

                          But you post modernist sheep will all of a sudden believe and trust Bush, a president you have ridiculed and sent links about being a dumbass back and forth?

                          You are not only idiots, you are hypocrites.

                          This pisses me off. You are like sheep.
                          • Re: Positivity

                            Fri, January 26, 2007 - 12:41 PM
                            sorry for the agressiveness... but who here ACTUALLY researched the site it is hosted on, or researched the speech.

                            And how many listened and blindly chose to believe what you wanted to believe. Without questioning, or researching.

                            I am just appalled how everyone thinks Bush is lying and stupid, and then all of a sudden champion him as being honest during a slip up?

                            This guy is a moron. watch this.

                            youtube.com/watch

                            Watch that, and tell me you trust his every word.

                            Anyone else think the idea of internal explosives sounding idiotic?

                            I only got into this because the hotel I am building had a demo expert for that Chicago conference.....
                            • Re: Positivity

                              Fri, January 26, 2007 - 12:43 PM
                              the idea of popular mechanics being deceitful media is like a guy becoming a boy scout troop leader so he can take over the free world.

                              JUST... WHO... DO... YOU.. THINK... IS... READING... THAT?!?!?

                              state leaders? moms?

                              or tech dorks, and the like.

                              That is a big plus.... lying so you get all the slobbering geeks on your side.

                              This really made me angry. I really get bummed when the "holier than thou, we know the truth" people get conspiratorial delusions of granduer...

                              you don't know shit.

                              Don't make the sadness of the day more complex by adding lies and misinformation.
                              • Re: Positivity

                                Fri, January 26, 2007 - 2:17 PM
                                I hope you are all busy reading the article. Sorry for my pre-lunch low blood sugar rant.

                                I still think the more people talk about this being a conspiracy, the more they show they're ignorance for how any of this stuff fundamentally works.
                                • Re: Positivity

                                  Fri, January 26, 2007 - 2:33 PM
                                  SUPLEX!!! Thanks... I have found something about bassnectar fans....

                                  we are so angry, and revolutionary... we want change. AND WE WANT TRUTH.

                                  But we are not always critical... and we believe things without research or evidence... so that we undermine our mission more than promote it.

                                  Believing in things solely because they bolster your idealogies is not the hallmark of critical thought, is it?

                                  I would like to be challenged.. I like the ability to hear new information, and revise my viewpoints. If you go into something "wanting" to believe it is true.. you will hear what you want to.

                                  Or not hear the obvious edits and it is sad how easily we are duped due to our willingness to believe.
                                • Re: Positivity

                                  Fri, January 26, 2007 - 2:33 PM
                                  awesome fucking rant.
                                  and I laughed at the popular mechanics article as I was reading it.
                                  • Re: Positivity

                                    Mon, January 29, 2007 - 8:34 AM
                                    entertaining!....i noticed that computers, seeming to make a lot of things faster, have slowed down the pace of this discussion with enough time for each side to respond thoughtfully
                          • Re: Positivity

                            Fri, January 26, 2007 - 2:40 PM
                            Here is the debunking... he meant to say explosions.

                            screwloosechange.blogspot.com/200...html

                            forums.randi.org/showthread.php

                            On second listen... although I never trust media content online, as that would be seriously dumb....

                            He misspoke... but I am not so sure it is edited to "make him" misspeak. He does that on his own without technology.
                            • Re: Positivity

                              Fri, January 26, 2007 - 9:30 PM
                              I apologize so deeply for how harsh my words were.... it was immature, it was inappropriate... and I am very deeply sorry.

                              I don't know if grumpy is the right word, but there is no real justification. I don't mean to retract my beliefs on the matter... but presenting it that way to ... YOU... you people.. is harsh and rude.

                              This is one of the finest, most open and loving communities I have been part of. And I mean no harm and only have love.

                              Sheepishly moving away..

                              me.
                              • Re: Positivity

                                Sat, January 27, 2007 - 4:00 AM
                                [quote]
                                But we are not always critical... and we believe things without research or evidence... so that we undermine our mission more than promote it.

                                -i am learnig everyday..i am an american..i do not trust my president(actually i am dual).....i do not trust the democrats either...i believe most politicians think america has a manifest" destiny"..oh by the way....... i read popular mechanics..i don't care who publishes it..i like LEARNING

                                musicians shouldn't talk politics anywho ....unless they put the money they make off creativity..... where their mouth is.... into the PHYSICAL political world....funding IMPORTANT mouvements...volunteerign community service...ect.....talk is cheap....so is drunk ramblings at 4am.
                                • Re: Positivity

                                  Sun, January 28, 2007 - 11:52 PM
                                  yay learning!

                                  Sorry to have freaked. I just hate that we focus our energies on non issues and end up in the fringe, where our positive and eager love and radicalness should be more centered so we can reach more people. Meaning, we will polarize people who are potentially affected by our message if we start promulgating the fringe beliefs that are debatable. We should stick with "positive and intellectual music" to stimulate the masses!
                                  • Unsu...
                                     

                                    Re: Positivity

                                    Mon, January 29, 2007 - 1:19 PM
                                    I could have responded to one of the posts above, but I couldn't pick one... so I'm not specifically responding to the post above, but more to the general idea that you guys/gals (Uncle Fishbits, Suplex and perhaps others) have about the "9/11 Truth Movement" being a bunch of self-agreeing "Conspiracy Theorists".

                                    I agree that picking apart Bush's speeches in order to add weight to the argument that 9/11 (WTC, Pentagon etc...) was a self-inflicted wound isn't adding any weight, but rather taking weight away from ALL of the *EVIDENCE* that is out there (publicly accessible) to support the argument.

                                    I also thought the "squibs" thing (explosive flashes just before WTC collapses) was a flawed approach... however, physicists have analyzed video footage from one camera and have discovered a very compelling vantage point that shows tons of orange, glowing liquified steel pouring out of one of the corners of the North (pretty sure) Tower just before it collapsed They have also gotten a hold of some of the steel (most of which was NEVER openly analyzed and reported on) and found the tell tale signs of a Thermite hybrid explosive that was used to "cut" the steel.

                                    But honestly, to pick one angle is difficult since there are SO MANY obvious signs indicating WTC was demolished. A frickin child could see that. It's only us adults who have problems *accepting* it because it seems SO evil and diabolic that it is a hard pill to swallow. If that alone prevents us from looking and probing for clues, then their psychological manipulation has proven effective. Well anyway, it's MY opinion that they knew it would be impossible for the masses to accept when they planned it.

                                    I know Alex Jones is a TOTAL wingnut, but fortunately his words aren't 100% wrong. His documentary "Terrorstorm" (up on Google Video for ANYBODY to watch) has quite a few credible contributors who are interviewed regarding 9/11 and the WTC collapse.
                                    Between that 'documentary' and a couple of others (mainly 9/11 Loose Change 2nd edition - also on Google Video) it seems to me that it can't be doctored to portray a right vs. left argument... nor can anyone call it "Conspiracy Theory" and not be asking for a verbal thrashing.

                                    It angers me that we've willingly forgotten those thousands of people who perished on 9/11 by allowing our government to deny us what is rightfully ours... INFORMATION... INVESTIGATIONS... HONESTY... That alone is indicatative that they have something to hide.

                                    That FEMA report on the WTC Blg. 7 collapse is a book of lies. They aren't even showing the proper structural schematics of the building. They falsified schematics and quite poorly too. Looks like some amateur using some freeware CAD program JUST for the purposes of inclusion in the FEMA report. A total fucking sham.

                                    The 'documentaries' that explain how both (not all three because they want us to forget the fact that WTC 7 came down) of the Twin Towers came down use the "Truss Rod Theory" to explain how the burning airplane fuel weakened the truss rods that held up the steel frame skyscraper and as the truss rods gave way, the domino effect brought both buildings down. They falsified untrue structural relationships that didn't exist in the actual building to concoct that explanation. It's bullshit and you can see it's BS if you look at the pictures of the WTC being built. You can easily see how the building was ACTUALLY constructed from those pictures.

                                    Don't make this a Democrat vs Republican thing please... that's insulting to our intelligence. It's not a Right/Left argument. Most of "us" (we people who believe 9/11 was a self-inflicted wound) would agree that the Democrats are no less corrupt.

                                    As far as what you said in this post above:

                                    "I just hate that we focus our energies on non issues and end up in the fringe, where our positive and eager love and radicalness should be more centered so we can reach more people."

                                    I totally agree with that. It's a crying wolf situation... the more radical "fringe" ideas we put forth, the more it pushes us outward to the fringe.

                                    BUT, (a huge but) I am not only convinced, but I would bet my life on the truthfulness that 9/11 was a self-inflicted wound. There are too many folks with nothing to gain (and no soapbox to stand on) who have come forward with their truth and their information... who are all swearing it was explosives that brought those 3 buildings... not 2 airplanes. I just can't believe anyone doesn't see the blatant obviousness to it!!! :(
                                    How stupid are we?!?!

                                    Another thing that irks me is when people chime into these discussions and complain that we're focussing on the negative... they say "What about all of the beauty that's happening in the world... let's focus on THAT."
                                    Well I believe there's a time and a place for every emotion... there's nothing more weak in my opinion than people who live their lives in denial of the lows of life. Everyone is entitled to speak their truth and only when one person tries to deny someone else their truth, do I feel there is an abuse of will taking place. Another thing that weakens "our" side is the stereotypical, hypocritical hippy who is only tolerant of tolerance.

                                    There are lots of positive things to focus on, but to request that everyone around you should only focus on the beauty is not only a great way to live out of balance, but it's also controlling and therefore "negative" in itself.

                                    A rant on hypocrisy:

                                    Those who proclaim themselves to be "non-conformists" are the ones who most strictly conform to their own kind. Oh, almost forgot to mention... you can pick up a fedora with a built-in feather at Target now for like $9.99. Looks like everyone can be a "freak" now for cheap ~ and without having to think for themselves.
                                    • Re: Positivity

                                      Mon, January 29, 2007 - 5:00 PM
                                      I'm glad that I hadn't checked this thread in a few days...

                                      Thanks, Sayr, for such a well-thought out reply to the thread.

                                      First, I welcome all debate, believing that dialectics is an evolutionary step towards enlightened communication, and through the process, we may find the most suited answers to our inquiries. I surely don't claim to understand physics, or even more elusive, the psychology of human beings. In relation to 9-11, and as an activist that has been researching and presenting information, I am careful to adhere to facts, and when reporting second-hand information, using what I believe are reputable sources. The 9-11 Truth (or Conspiracy) Movement has been plagued by disinformation, but that's what you get when you have an open source of information. It is our job to sort it out.

                                      I'm grateful for all the discussion that this thread has catalyzed: I would just caution to not using attacks [or at least attack the information, not the messenger!]

                                      Before I respond, I must admit that I didn't think that I would be debating the likelihood of 9-11 being an inside job. I was hoping to debate what action we should take to hold those accountable. I posted this topic because I felt that his admission of the explosives was truly a "smoking gun." I stared at my computer screen with my jaw open as I read the words on their site. In retrospect, I remember my second day at my first 9-11 symposium, and how I left feeling overwhelmed by the information, and also in disbelief. I have always questioned are country's foreign policies, but this just seemed too sinister, too evil, even for men like Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, et al., the men who have fashioned the war policies of this administration. What follows is my response to those still in disbelief and then, truly the "facts" pointing towards goverment complicity. I am not a historian nor physicist, and yes, some of my info is regurgitated, but I like to think that I am a picky eater. But TRULY, if you merely look at the government's actions, there is clearly something awry....

                                      First of all, I thought that the page had been pulled from the white house's webpage. Upon more delving, I found it once again... Here is the url. You can read for yourself--on their website--and deduce for yourself if you think that it was merely a verbal misstep.

                                      www.whitehouse.gov/news/rel...15-2.html

                                      from the text: "The bill would also provide clear rules for our personnel involved in detaining and questioning captured terrorists. The information that the Central Intelligence Agency has obtained by questioning men like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed has provided valuable information and has helped disrupt terrorist plots, including strikes within the United States.

                                      For example, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed described the design of planned attacks of buildings inside the U.S. and how operatives were directed to carry them out. That is valuable information for those of us who have the responsibility to protect the American people. He told us the operatives had been instructed to ensure that the explosives went off at a high -- a point that was high enough to prevent people trapped above from escaping."

                                      Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is the alleged mastermind of the September 11 attacks. I use the word "alleged," because from my research the evidence points to other elements within our own government. It is debatable that he meant to say "explosions" instead of "explosives." It is obvious to me that if you're defending the official story of jet fuel weakening the central core of the buildings, then, yes, a logical defense of this would be to claim that Bu$h made a slip of the tongue. However, I am not purporting the official story, and this speech is yet another chink in the armor. OK, let's say that it was a mistake, you think that the white house might correct the website, so iThet doesn't read "explosives." In any case, mistake or not, this speech is not the linchpin of the "controlled demolitions" of the World Trade Center.
                                      As Sayr pointed out there have been numerous, respected physicists, engineers, etc., who have come out and questioned the official story.

                                      As far as the physics of the collapses, it is now widely accepted that there is no way in which the hydrocarbon fuel could have reached the temperature necessary to melt the central cores of the buildings. Even if the floors were pancaking, there should have been at least one of the 47 steel beams poking above the floors. At one point in the footage, and I'm sorry, I can't remember right now if it's the south tower or north tower, the top of the building cants over, and following physics, it should have continued to lean over and topple away from the buidling's footprint, but somehow, it miraculously disintegrates in the freefall of the buildings. The freefall of the buildings themselves point towards demolition. Those buildings did not meet any resistance at all. Scientists have measured the rate at which the buildings collapse and it is tantamount to a free fall. Shouldn't these buildings have met some resistance?

                                      And as Sayr pointed out, there has now been evidence of thermite on the steel, which is used for "cutting" steel. There has also been seismic data showing huge activity before the collapses of both towers. There's more, but I would just point you to the wealth of information on the Internet. If you want a specific direction, feel free to write to me or respond here...

                                      If you look at the government's actions before, during and after 9-11, there are many disturbing questions.

                                      In June of 2001, all the protocol for air emergencies were changed. In June of 2001, all war games and exercises were put under the command of Dick Cheney, by executive order.

                                      On the morning of September 11, there were at least four war games, some even involving simulated hijacked aircraft. Some inserted fake blips onto FAA's radar screens. Jane Garvey, in her testimony to the 9-11 Commission testified that when the attacks were underway, it appeared that there were at least 22 hijackings. And now the protocol for reporting and responding had changed. Not to mention that the head of one of the NORAD posts, the agency that overseas all of our air defense, was having his first day on the job.

                                      During the week of September 4-13, General Ahmad Mahmoud, the Director of the Pakistani ISI (InterServices Intelligence--our CIA counterpart), whose appointment has to be approved by the CIA under treaty with the United States, was in Washington, meeting with all the top brass at the Pentagon, and on the Hill. He was actually having breakfast with both heads of Congress's Intelligence Committees as the planes were flying into the buildings. It was later reported by the Times of India and then confirmed by our own FBI that this man had ordered the wire transfer of $100,000 to alleged lead hijacker Mohammed Atta. He quietly stepped down from his post when this came out.

                                      One would think this man would be questioned, arrested, and convicted of financing one-fifth of the 9-11 attacks [The 9-11 Commission estimated that it took $500,000 to pull of the attacks]. In fact, there has been only one conviction in relation to the 9-11 attacks. Of the over 600 people arrested in relation to 9-11, there has only been one conviction, and all but a handful have been released.

                                      Our gov't has done everything to block a formal, independent investigation of 9-11. The Commission was formed over a year after the attacks, and only under heavy pressure. It took five days to launch a commission after the Challenger exploded. A little over a week after Monica blew Clinton. They spent hundreds of millions of dollars invesigating a blowjob, and only $30 million on 9-11.

                                      If you look at history, almost every conflict in the last two hundred years has been preceded with a deception to sell the public war. FDR goaded the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor, and when it was clear that they were going to, he kept that information from Hawaii. the Gulf of Tonkin, blowing up the U.S.S. Maine, these are all examples of our elected leaders foiling the public so thay can spend money on war.

                                      The agenda of the Military-Prison-Industrial Complex does not include peace. It seeks a complete hegemony by western powers, and is powered by an American global dominance. Looking at the future of our planet and its inhabitants, we can no longer ignore their plans. It is not a conspiracy. Go to their websites, read their documents, their treatises. It's not a secret because they don't give a fuck what you think, and moreover, they are counting upon the apathy and powerlessness of the people, and their easily bent wills.

                                      Positivity? I guess I am positive. I believe that we can turn the tide, but it starts with awareness and then sharing that awareness. And action. I, too, am guilty of armchair philosophizing. We need to figure out what it is that we can do and then do it.

                                      I know that this community and others are beginning to discuss these very topics. The upcoming "Underground Communicaion" tour will provide an open community forum, led by local and touring activists. And we need your participation.

                                      Stay tuned,
                                      Your comrade,
                                      Chris Sia


                                      • Re: Positivity

                                        Mon, January 29, 2007 - 7:45 PM
                                        Obviously demolished?

                                        www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/...875_ITM

                                        read that. Sayr is a DJ suggesting it was obviously demolished. I, however, will trust demolition experts and architects.

                                        NOAM CHOMSKY INTERVIEWED ABOUT 9/11... and that the conspiracy is totally bunk.

                                        www.youtube.com/watch

                                        "If you look at the evidence, anyone who knows anything about the sciences would instantly discount the evidence"
                                        • Re: Positivity

                                          Mon, January 29, 2007 - 7:51 PM
                                          I am constantly frightened by the cultish attitude of those claiming an open mind, while completely lacking any real evidence. A book of lies? Did you read it? What makes you qualified to judge?

                                          We are not experts. We are thoughtful musicians. People with an emotional reaction to flawed logic are the least likely we should trust.

                                          We sit here and debate this... and the entire scientific, engineering, and community at large that have expertise or access to the evidence are the ones deeming a conspiracy a joke.

                                          Do you have any idea how difficult it is to plan and plant explosives?

                                          No.

                                          Did you read the "book of lies" about the WTC... I seriously doubt it. Most don't have access.... and saying a book of lies with no counter evidence is problematic to me.

                                          Believe what you like.... but as all of you are claiming to be open minded, you have to admit, you could be wrong.

                                          I am not going to post long lines of text from the above article... but read it, with an open mind... and if that doesn't answer your questions, or douse the fire...

                                          you are simply believing in what you want to make you feel good about your belief systems. And *that* is totally closed minded.
                                          • Re: Positivity

                                            Mon, January 29, 2007 - 7:57 PM
                                            FINE... from the article people will no doubt *not* read as it viably challenges what people *want* to believe.

                                            There is soooooooo much debunking in this article about WTC 7 too. Just a teeny bit below. They first talk about the fires, and debunk Jones' critique, and then lamblast the shallow, weakly thought out WTC 7 arguments....
                                            =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

                                            By contrast, the story told by the 9/11 Truth Movement is riddled with holes. It assumes that Larry Silverstein destroyed WTC Building 7, presumably in order to claim a huge insurance payoff. But if this is so, why would he tell the world of his plot on a PBS special? Furthermore, what relationship does Silverstein have with the United States government who, according to conspiracy theorists, destroyed the WTC buildings in order to terrorize its citizens into accepting domination by a police state? (20) And if the government controlled the demolition of the WTC buildings in order to strike fear into its citizens, why one this one case would it wait until all of the tenants were evacuated from WTC 7 so that there were no reported casualties? (21) The government's strategy appears wildly inconsistent in the Troth Movement account--killing nearly 3,000 people in the destruction of the two main towers, while allowing an entire afternoon for the tenants of WTC 7 to escape. We should also note that the alleged 9/11 plot was needlessly complicated, since the building was wired for a controlled demolition and targeted to be hit by airplanes--why not just do the controlled demolition, ditch the airplanes and blame it on the terrorists of your choice?

                                            There's also the problem that, as even the 9/11 Truth Movement admits, prepping a building for demolition takes considerable time and effort. Usually a building targeted for demolition has been abandoned for considerable time and partially gutted to allow explosives intimate contact with the structure of the building. But since all of the WTC buildings were occupied right up to 9/11, how did the government gain access to wire 3 towers for complete demolition without anyone noticing? Imagine trying to sneak wires and bombs into buildings while thousands of people are working in offices, riding the elevators and milling about in the halls--that scenario is unlikely in the extreme.
                                      • Re: Positivity

                                        Mon, January 29, 2007 - 8:03 PM
                                        You weaken your ability to fight the real thought wars about the new order with adherence to bizarre logic riddled with holes.

                                        Just wondering.. is anyone hear an engineer or someone that would have any credibility???

                                        I am what seems a lone voice in this... why does everyone believe in this stuff? Is it simply because you are so angry and rightfully distrusting of the government?

                                        I mean.... if you really, truly, deep down believed this to be real...

                                        how could you live in this country? How could you not move to Canada or some other nation?

                                        If I believed what all of you are saying, I would have enough self respect to leave at ONCE.

                                        uhhhh... that is so creepy to think that you would believe in this and as angry as you seem about knowledge you don't have... that you would apathetically allow yourselves to be ruled by an authority like this.

                                        Isn't that hypocritical?
                                        • Re: Positivity

                                          Mon, January 29, 2007 - 8:04 PM
                                          NOT *knowledge you don't have*

                                          I meant

                                          *evidence we don't have access to*
                                          • Unsu...
                                             

                                            What's with all the assumptions of ignorance, pal?!

                                            Tue, January 30, 2007 - 3:52 AM
                                            Wow... it would be a full-time job to read all of your posts and links. Not that I am not interested in what you have to say or not that I'm not a bit long-winded myself... it's just that you seem to really go for the Carpet Bomb approach to posting. Makes it hard to reply with any thoroughness.

                                            But anyway, on to more important matters:

                                            First off, to address a couple of things which you have either asked about or mistakenly assumed things about.


                                            You said: "Sayr is a DJ suggesting it was obviously demolished. I, however, will trust demolition experts and architects."

                                            I am not a DJ... i have DJ'd for years, but I'm actually a music producer. I don't DJ at all nowadays.
                                            But regardless... that's not ALL that I do in this world.

                                            As a matter of fact, (since you keep harping on that nobody here is an engineer, nor do any of us know anything about anything) I used to be a full-time mechanical engineer, designing hard-drive test equipment for hard-drive manufacturers. For 11 years (@ on average 50hrs/wk) I designed highly complex and extremely precise robotic test equipment that used artificial intelligence (learning) and automated mobile mechanisms that assembled, tested (and even repaired) hard-drives on the assembly lines in the factories. I was also a project manager, so when any of my designs were being fabricated in our factory, I had to oversee the manufacturing, quality assurance, assembly and customer relations... that is, of course in addition to the actual design/engineering.

                                            So, while you are proudly declaring that I have no knowledge or understanding of structural integrity or general laws of physics, your assumptions are way off. Maybe try asking before you assume what people do/don't do & what they know/don't know.

                                            Either way, there are plenty of notably intelligent and professional sources who have stuck their necks out in agreeing that there are large amounts of evidence to support the theory of demolition. You're just ignoring that evidence. Do you want it broken down? Cuz b'lieve me, I will. And then, you can go through each point of *evidence* I have presented and we'll see if you can satisfactorily debunk it with your superior knowledge and qualifications.


                                            You said: "A book of lies? Did you read it? What makes you qualified to judge?"

                                            The FEMA report on the collapse of WTC 7 is publically available and as a matter of fact, I have a PDF of it right here. I can e-mail it to you if you like. I've read and studied every bit of it numerous times.

                                            And believe me, all of it (that FEMA 'report') is so obviously fabricated to sell their story. It would be (and is) easy for anyone to see after reading it, that the main elements of the official story directly contradict reality. Only reason these explanations are accepted as truth is because hardly anyone pays attention to details. And they've come up with all of these "debunkings" of the "conspiracy theories", but those debunkings showcase the "skeptics" reaching to the furthest extents of remote possibilities to explain how it all went down as it did. I can't believe that these skeptics (who consider themselves intelligent) will actually SWALLOW the BS contained in the "official" stories and "debunkings" of conspiracy theories. Their explanations are so wild and outrageously far-fetched that with each debunking, the glowing truth of the simplicity of what actually DID happen just penetrates through... while also showing how desperate they are to find a comeback whenever anyone finds a bit of their sloppily covered trail of evidence.


                                            You said: "We sit here and debate this... and the entire scientific, engineering, and community at large that have expertise or access to the evidence are the ones deeming a conspiracy a joke."

                                            That's absolutely not true! That's what they would have you believe, but the truth is that there are renowned physicists, veteran fire-fighters (as well as Fire Engineering magazine) and I could go on and on down the list of credible and respected people who have a lot to lose and nothing to gain by voicing their disgust... who have come forward and gone on record saying that they are convinced that not only is the official story totally falsified, but that NOTHING could have leveled those 3 buildings (while liquifying hundreds of tons of metal and burning at 1300º F for weeks afterward) besides specific explosives. The only experts who come out agreeing with the official story are either those who haven't really investigated it AT ALL or those who are adhering to the policy put forth by those who hand them their paychecks.


                                            You said: "Do you have any idea how difficult it is to plan and plant explosives?"

                                            Yeah, do you know how difficult it is to frickin do anything that involves organization? Come ON Man!! This is the fucking military we're talking about! An electronic servo that pops off a bunch of explosive charges according to a simple program?!?! That isn't even piece of cake for someone with an electrical engineering degree... it's a joke. And it's even more of a joke to act like it's hard to pull off! Gimme a break. They build goddamn aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines and you mean to tell me it's hard to plant explosives?!?! We blew up two cities in Japan with two bombs 60 years ago to end WW2. SIXTY YEARS ago... and you think it's hard to blow up a building or three.

                                            The only difficult part is doing it unnoticed and that's the part they almost failed on. Lucky for them, the American people are eager to forget last week's headline.

                                            But, as for the planning - it's a widely talked-about, known fact that there were all sorts of activities taking place in the WTC in the weeks leading up to 9/11. That includes removal of the usual bomb-sniffing dogs that were normally on site and also numerous scheduled power shutdowns that took place that were supposedly intended for security systems testing. All of the things you would expect that would have to happen in order to setup a planned demolition DID *in fact* take place and many people who worked there have gone on record talking about that. Do you want me to cite those sources?


                                            You said: "I mean.... if you really, truly, deep down believed this to be real...how could you live in this country? How could you not move to Canada or some other nation? If I believed what all of you are saying, I would have enough self respect to leave at ONCE.
                                            uhhhh... that is so creepy to think that you would believe in this and as angry as you seem about knowledge you don't have... that you would apathetically allow yourselves to be ruled by an authority like this. Isn't that hypocritical?"

                                            What you think I haven't heard that one before? You just rattled off what all nationalistic (but really, they're "patriotic") Bush-supporters say to someone who disagrees with our president. It just goes right along with the "you're either with us or against us" line of thinking.

                                            Man, if I had a nickel for every time I've heard a Bush supporter say "love it or leave it"... no, no... if THEY had a nickel for every time they said it, they could afford to buy ALL OF us commie traitors tickets back home to the former Soviet Union like they want to!

                                            Well I won't be forced out of my home - the country of which I am a citizen, just because some fascist idiots decided they needed to take it over and then proclaim it as THEIR country now. And ahhem... just so you know... we American's can't LEGALLY WORK in Canada... so... um... er... why don't YOU go to Canada?!?!

                                            And these people who are currently running this country? NO, they aren't what this country was founded upon... and NO, they aren't "Christians"... they are living the EXACT opposite of how Jesus supposedly taught people to live. And just because they can doctor it to look like 50.5% (round it up to 51%) agree with them, still... this country is obviously divided down the middle. And if the information we're discussing wasn't squashed and deliberately ridiculed (despite it's obvious merit)... if it was put forth to the masses, I guarantee you, it would be the true perpetrators of 9/11 who'd be leaving this country, not those of us who want to preserve the ACTUAL Freedom we were guaranteed by our Constitution.


                                            I need to zoom in close on one of your gems here:

                                            "...that you would apathetically allow yourselves to be ruled by an authority like this. Isn't that hypocritical?"

                                            If I left this country, THAT my friend would be apathy. To stick around and try to do my part to >hopefully< change things?? That is the exact opposite of apathy. That's what I see as an act of dedication and commitment. I happen to have a family and friends who I love. Nieces and Nephews to watch grow up. Besides, did you ever hear me say that I don't like living in this country?
                                            • I would highly recommend watching this video.

                                              video.google.com/videoplay

                                              It does an excellent job of debunking practically every point that the theorists make.

                                              ---
                                              rodent (putting the eek in geek)
                                              • Sayr... I love you. And... here is a cool robot thingy..
                                                www.usmechatronics.com/usmgar...ot.html
                                                a wii controlled robot!

                                                BUT...
                                                "So, while you are proudly declaring that I have no knowledge or understanding of structural integrity or general laws of physics, your assumptions are way off. Maybe try asking before you assume what people do/don't do & what they know/don't know."

                                                I only assumed this because you are demonstrating absolutely no knowledge of structural engineering, and are repeating hollow and debunked theories. send the pdf that you are speaking of to unclefishbits@gmail.com

                                                But if it is what I have seen, it will be the same insinuation in the lack of explanation.... just because there is a gray area, doesn't mean you instill it with illogical leaps of fancy.

                                                Again... I will read the pdf, you read the article I have posted, three times now...

                                                and we will start over.

                                                What do you feel about Chomsky's thoughts?
                                                It is from the new issue of skeptic magazine... which is about critical thought.
                                                www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/...875_ITM

                                                and the love it or leave it thing is shite, bro.

                                                But seriously... SERIOUSLY. If we have that subversive of a government, why let yourself be a pawn? It isn't about loving it or leaving it... that is so myopic. I just mean about your own personal self respect and self worth... how could you stay?
                                                • (of course, these conversations are pointless... because I get all heated about the fact people believe whatever they want. I will not be talking about this much anymore...

                                                  instead of critically analyzing the data, you are feretting out bits and pieces to of context to bolster your beliefs. It is called the Forer effect. You can see all the hard evidence, and ignore it all for one single piece of unexplained, trivial phenomenon.

                                                  I would like a list of names of *ALL* the people you say are viable sources on this, so I can do some research. The Prison Planet guy is one of the most credulous conspiracy theorists. He will believe anything.

                                                  That article from the skeptic debunks *EVERY* single one of your theories. If you read that, still have a list of people you can give me that are ethical, upright people that are respected within their community... I will read it all and do research.

                                                  I just haven't seen any evidence at all which would suggest this is anything but a waste of my energy and time.


                                                  CARPETBOMB! Sorry for the assumptions earlier Sayr. I know you produce... apologies. But I still don't think that we are the kind of people who have the access or background to understand all the data your are promulgating.
                                                  • So I read that article, and I just disagree with it.

                                                    I will just bring up one point right now.

                                                    Within that article it asks the reader to carefully examine the footage of the falling tower. The assumption by the author is then made that if you are examining the footage you will CLEARLY see that the upper portion of the building fall down and begin pancacking the floors below. This is supposed to "debunk" the demolition theory.

                                                    Well I just disagree. That is not what I observe when I watch the footage. I see the upper portions fall first, and then a split second later I see the entire building falling together, not beeing pancacked.

                                                    But I suppose my opinion does not matter because I am no expert? My eyes do not count because I lack a degree in engineering, my nose smells no shit because I don't fit into YOUR perspective of who has a leg to stand on.

                                                    • "But I suppose my opinion does not matter because I am no expert? My eyes do not count because I lack a degree in engineering..."

                                                      Now we are getting somewhere. As we all know... human emotion and belief makes human experience as vague and subjective as anything else.

                                                      The fact that what you see clouds your critical faculties is the point... you think you see something that validates your belief. Like a religious person summoning a spirit, or a creationist altering science to meet their needs.

                                                      That *ONE* thing doesn't debunk the theory... the whole article does. Did you stop when you disagreed, or did you read the whole thing?

                                                      Point after point of the revisionist methodology is extinguished....

                                                      none of you seem to be asking WHY???

                                                      Why would they do it?
                                                      Why would they use planes if the building is loaded with explosives?
                                                      Why would they somehow manipulate and control thousands upon thousands of people... across multiple countries... arranging middle easterners to be on the plans?

                                                      How could they possibly contain the whistle blowers that would come out... if they can't stop the media from finding out about a blow job in the white house?

                                                      There is absolutely no viable motive for us to have done this. The media would pick up BILLIONS of dollars by breaking this.... why haven't they? Are they controlled too?

                                                      Why would intellectuals from all over the world, like Noam Chomsky, be forced into a position of making a statement? You think Noam and the experts were bought off?

                                                      Why are there multiude of experts reporting what they are reporting?

                                                      WHY WHY WHY?

                                                      The Muslims had plenty of reason. They had a method. They had training. They had access. They had documented plans that were found on laptops. They had a network that admits to it.....

                                                      why would you make stuff up for no reason?

                                                      Okay... I am ready. Point by point I will debunk this. Bring up one thing at a time, and I will respond.

                                                      Let's start.....

                                                      why would the government do this? What do they have to gain?
                                                      • As desperately as people want to believe in everything, they slowly find they believe in nothing. Believing for the sake of believing doesn't make it right.

                                                        Finding holes in the truth doesn't invalidate it.

                                                        The problem.... is that you are trying to poke holes in the real story, instead of having any *REAL* evidence for your side of the story. There are anecdotes, there are theories.... there are a *LOT* of assumptions.

                                                        But there is zero evidence for your theory.

                                                        We have plane parts, terrorist data from Interpol, demolition expert testimony, debunked conspiracy theorist out of context quotes....

                                                        any argument you have had is not compelling.

                                                        The burden of proof is on the claimant, and you are suggesting that it wasn't planes that fell those buildings. It was some government conspiracy... so the burden of proof is on you (the claimants). There has been nothing but conspiratorial jive.

                                                        So let's do it... point by point...

                                                        WHY would the government do this? And how did the terrorists take credit for it? And why, with modern media being about *MONEY* only... have they not been able to break this story? Again... the white house cannot cover a diddle with a cigar... or recordings... or ANYTHING. The government, as we all know, is incompetent.

                                                        Are you saying the 1000's of people involved in this conspiracy have remained quiet less one or two? That is absurd.
                                              • Unsu...
                                                 
                                                Rodent,

                                                Thanks for posting the link to that video... I am eager to watch it.

                                                Since it's over 2.5 hours, it's going to have to wait until the wee hours of tonite. :) Busy day today.

                                                BUT, I started to watch it and the feeling I've already gotten is one of reciprocal skepticism. So far, (from the first 10 mins) their "debunking" is pretty marginally credible. I just love how all it takes for them to consider these "theories" debunked is ONE person from some official *sounding* agency who says whatever they have (possibly been scripted) to say. It's my opinion that their stories are no more credible than those of the 9/11 Truth Movement's.

                                                I will reserve any specific comments until after I watch the video. Then I want to address specific points and see if we can all get a bit more clear on the whose opinions seem more valid. But it IS all opinion at this point since there it seems there's been no conclusive evidence that's good enough to finally end this debate.
                                                • SAYR I LOVE YOU AND WISH I WAS AS LEVEL HEADED AS YOU HAVE BEEN.

                                                  I am very new to intelligent discussion online. I am reserved and respectful in the normal world... but online I realize I am not... and I think it has something to do with the accountability of the situation... I don't feel like I will ever get confronted about my rudeness.

                                                  I am aware of it, and working to fix it.

                                                  Thank you for being a shining light of maturity, open mindeness, and producing some sick as hell badass tracks.

                                                  But that guy from the beginning of the video is a holocaust denier. He is a conspiracy theorist, methinks.

                                                  I plan to watch the thing late night too. As someone who considers himself a skeptic... I still think that is a LOT of info to go through. Forget netflix tonight.

                                                  Again... SAYR... pardon any impetuousness... rudeness... or sophomoric giddiness that creates rudeness!!!!!!!!

                                                  I TOTALLY AGREE... and this isn't part of a carpetbomb... this is a public reply to you. My other two will start where you are going...

                                                  let's do a point by point.... (I am so sorry about the carpet bombing. I know brevity is the soul of wit... I guess I ain't that witty!)
                                                  • SAYR.. I am rereading your posts in awe. Thanks. Sheesh I sound like an asshole so often.

                                                    Like I said.. .knew to online conversation. The fact that my bassnectar friends truly believed in this conspiracy was as shocking and jolting as saying that I don't really have a job in the hotel business, and I live in India.

                                                    Seriously... the fact that people really believe in this was that shocking.

                                                    I watched some more of the doc.... it will clear up a lot of misconceptions.
                                                    • Unsu...
                                                       
                                                      Hey Uncle F,
                                                      Thanks. I was pleasantly surprised to read your recent posts. I love you too! :) No really... you're really caring and you obviously value truth... a quality I admire and share myself.

                                                      You know how you can play a video for a group of people and they will all swear they saw different things.. but they each believe with intense conviction that what they saw was the truth? Seems to me that's how this subject is. But you can add to that scenario the fact that this topic is loaded with so much emotion! It pulls, plucks and kicks our heartstrings. Just having this discussion (which I am happy to be having) I can feel how it affects my emotions throughout the day. But I trust we're getting somewhere with this and that it's happening for GOOD reason.

                                                      I believe we can all agree that the people who passed on 9/11 (and their families/friends) would hope that any probing into this subject was done with respect and honor to their memory. I don't believe (as some do) that suspecting our government's involvement is in ANY way a dishonoring of their memory. If anything, just ATTEMPTING to get to the bottom of it is our quest for justice.

                                                      You have to admit, the fact that the FBI released the *complete* list of terrorists just days after 9/11 is fishy. Not to mention, a good portion of those men are still alive and happened to have had their passports stolen within the 2 years before 9/11 took place. Some of them lead respectable lives and have honest jobs. They were the victims of identity theft and the FBI/American media was eager to give the people something to chew on. We live in a society that has become obsessed with instant gratification... tune in at 11 to find out WHO DID IT!!!

                                                      All throughout the past, people in power have had to find a suspect of a crime where there was nobody. A good portion of the time, innocent people were framed and prosecuted when there was no suspect (or the suspect was a person of prestige and power) because the people have to have a scapegoat... they need to have a whipping boy and then the game is over. Everyone gets to go home and tune back out.

                                                      Anyway, I digress... Uncle F. I appreciate your sentiment and compliments too. I hope we can keep talking about this even though you've already said you wanna move on. Either way, I understand what you mean.

                                                      I am only doing what my heart feels compelled to... and my heart tells me those souls won't be truly at rest until the true perpetrators are brought to justice... at least through widespread knowledge of truth.

                                                      I have a lot to respond with about that link you posted to the Skeptic's article about his experience with the 9/11 Truth Movement. I really want to address his conclusions one by one. And that video that Rodent posted the link to as well. I watched a good portion (not all) of it and I have a lot to say. I just have to get through a project today that's mega-important and I'll be back to this ASAP.

                                                      But one thing first:

                                                      Just because the buildings started falling from the points at which the airplanes crashed into... that doesn't mean it wasn't a demolition. That just means that if it WAS a demolition, that they would have had to have had the ability to choose where the electonic (prob remote controlled) servos would have started firing from. To program a sequence with a variable starting point that fires a long string of explosives that are timed according to a building's specific anatomy is NOT a difficult task for people who are educated in the basic skills needed to pull this off. Remember, we live in an age of cars, computers, airplanes, robots etc... where's the challenge in programming an electronic bomb sequence? The skeptics say that it would be impossible to get to the core of the building to put the necessary explosives into place and that's why it couldn't have been done. Think about that for a second. That's not a skeptical point of view at ALL. That's a biased debunking that's coming from someone who's not open-minded. They've got their minds made up that it wasn't demolished and they will say whatever it takes (including jumping to their *own* conclusions) to say they've debunked the demolition theories.

                                                      And for now a partial list of evidence that has not been debunked as of yet.

                                                      1. Seismic evidence from nearby Columbia U that shows two minor (2.1 and 2.3) earthquakes at Ground Zero at the moment just before the buildings collapsed. They measure similar seismic data on a daily basis from a nearby quarry that uses large explosives in their operations.

                                                      2. The video camera on a tripod in a neighboring building that was recording the North Tower burning. The tripod and camera vibrated significantly at the moment before the 2nd tower collapsed. That correlates with the seismic data from Columbia U. It was from the exact same moment (video was time-stamped).

                                                      3. Explosions in the subway system that killed and injured numerous people just BEFORE the first plane hit.

                                                      4. There is video of the second plane hitting. One of these videos which was taken from the street provides a clear, upward angle shot of the airplane just before the moment of impact. This angle shows that the specific model which crashed into the North Tower was a short-nose 767 when the flight they were claiming crashed into the North Tower was a long-nose 767. I am trying to find the link (I thought I bookmarked the page) that shows this entire study with measurements, photos etc...

                                                      5. BYU Physics professor, Dr. Steven Jones (a co-founder of Scholars for 911 Truth) has found Thermate (thermite + sulfur) residue on structural steel samples from WTC. He believes that Thermate explosives were used to cut the structural steel... which was necessary to allow the building to collapse. I will provide links later after I have a minute to collect them. Obviously there are scholars who believe it was a demolition.

                                                      6. Smoldering ground temperatures of 1300º F for weeks after building collapse. What do the skeptics have to say about that? Are they claiming that it was a result of jet fuel + friction from collapse??? If so, that would be totally illogical. So why so hot & for so long?

                                                      Basically, it's my observation that these skeptics will consider any doubt they have to be a thorough debunking. As soon as they see something that makes them uncertain that the "conspiracy theorists" are being 100% factual, they instantly jump to the conclusion that it's 100% false. They also lump together the "no-plane" conspiracy theorists with all other people who believe 9/11 was an inside job. That's what's called "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". Even though I hate that saying, it's befitting here because the skeptics choose to associate anyone who thinks that 2 airplanes didn't bring down those 3 buildings with those who believe all kinds of wild stories, like... the planes were holograms... F16's fired missiles into the WTC... and Bush & Satan flew their Boeing 666 heli-hovercraft over it and dropped an atom bomb on the roof! If they want to be so unfair as to lump everyone together who thinks it was a hoax, then it's them who are in need of skeptical scrutiny, not the millions of people who believe it was perpetrated by people other than terrorists.

                                                      All we're asking for is re-opening of the "investigation" or more accurately... ANY public investigation! Cuz, until now, there hasn't been one with any traces of honesty. What we have from them so far is a bedtime story that's meant to make a lil' kid fall asleep quickly.... a pacifier for weak minds who don't need actual information. I'm sorry, but that's just not good enough for the rest of us who can see from 1,000 angles that they're straight-up lying to us.

                                                      Longer than I expected... but more (hopefully less caffeinated) later.

                                                      All I really wanted to say is that there IS evidence. LOTS of it. And not wingnut missile-theory bullshit either. What I listed above is just the tip of the iceberg.
                                                      • > 1. Seismic evidence from nearby Columbia U that shows two minor (2.1 and 2.3) earthquakes at Ground Zero at the moment just before the buildings collapsed. They measure similar seismic data on a daily basis from a nearby quarry that uses large explosives in their operations.

                                                        Do you have any idea how loud an explosion, much less a string of explosions would be to cause a 2.1 seismic event... from a few hundred feet in the air?!? If I can find the time, I will look for seismic data from real explosive demolitions for comparison.

                                                        > 2. The video camera on a tripod in a neighboring building that was recording the North Tower burning. The tripod and camera vibrated significantly at the moment before tower collapsed. That correlates with the seismic data from Columbia U. It was from the exact same moment (video was time-stamped).

                                                        I've see the footage, the camera seems to be a few blocks away. An explosion with enough force to shake a camera would have been heard by everyone. It is more likely that someone bumped the camera.

                                                        > 3. Explosions in the subway system that killed and injured numerous people just BEFORE the first plane hit.

                                                        I've heard nothing of this. Please cite.

                                                        > 4. There is video of the second plane hitting. One of these videos which was taken from the street provides a clear, upward angle shot of the airplane just before the moment of impact. This angle shows that the specific model which crashed into the North Tower was a short-nose 767 when the flight they were claiming crashed into the North Tower was a long-nose 767. I am trying to find the link (I thought I bookmarked the page) that shows this entire study with measurements, photos etc...

                                                        and all of this from only 1 camera? What about all the other footage?

                                                        > 5. BYU Physics professor, Dr. Steven Jones (a co-founder of Scholars for 911 Truth) has found Thermate (thermite + sulfur) residue on structural steel samples from WTC. He believes that Thermate explosives were used to cut the structural steel... which was necessary to allow the building to collapse. I will provide links later after I have a minute to collect them. Obviously there are scholars who believe it was a demolition.

                                                        For one, Structural Steel CONTAINS sulpher. I would like to see the concentration amounts that he found compaired to what the steel already contained.
                                                        from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSLA_steel
                                                        HSLA steels are so called because they only contain a very small percentage of carbon. A typical HSLA steel may contain 0.15% carbon, 1.65% manganese and low levels (under 0.035%) of phosphorus and sulphur[1]. It may also contain small amounts of copper, nickel, niobium, nitrogen, vanadium, chromium, molybdenum, silicon, or zirconium.
                                                        For two, Thermite and thermate aren not explosives in a practical sense. Heck, both substances are use to weld metal together as well as burn through them. It is true that thermite and thermate reach extreemly high temperatures but they don't have a concussive force (which is used in demolitions). When the chemical reaction in thermite and thermate begin, they are both in a liquid state. If they're liquid, how could they be used to cut through (as well as cut "cleanly" through as many say) the vertical steel in the WTC?
                                                        more info on thermite and thermate can be found here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite

                                                        > 6. Smoldering ground temperatures of 1300º F for weeks after building collapse. What do the skeptics have to say about that? Are they claiming that it was a result of jet fuel + friction from collapse??? If so, that would be totally illogical. So why so hot & for so long?

                                                        Yyu have to realize that just because a fire has been buried, doesn't mean that it will go out. As a matter of fact, burying a fire can INCREASE the temperature. As long as a fire has a source of oxygen, it will continue to burn. If a fire has fuel, an oxygen source AND is insulated (by, for instance, tonns of shattered concrete) it acts as an oven, concentrating the temperature. The debris from the collapse was not a completely homogenous pile of dust, it was a tinker toy arrangement of debris. Hell, they found a couple of guys burried in the debris, still alive. Lots of nooks and cranies for O2 to seep in. Secondarily, you must realize that mass + acceleration = energy. Something that falls, when it impacts, generates heat as a biproduct. All of the energy used to lift the concrete and steel to the height that it falls from, returns and releases it's stored, or more acurately described as, potential energy. A lot of the energy from the collapse, dissapated in the air/dust plume, much as in a pyroclastic flow from a volcano(though a lot of that was just air displacement from the fall), but a lot of that energy became heat at the point of impact..

                                                        Though I try not to delve into anecdotal evidence, an old roommate of mine worked for the Forestry Service in Seattle. After a forest fire, they would have to continually recheck the burned areas for hot pockets. Literally, dead tree stumps and roots that had caught fire and were still burning underground, even after a snowstorm!! I have personally seen a log 9/10ths buried under sand at a beach, still smoldering along the entire hollow length.



                                                        On a final note, I am continually amused at how similar the arguments and references to "experts" are so tangentially echoed by the "we never landed on the moon" conspiracy kooks. Scratch the surface with some real data and it's a house of cards.

                                                        ---
                                                        rodent (putting the eek in geek)

                                                        • I admit a mistake in my posting of saying "cleary someone knew". Its obviously unclear as you point out by your posting.

                                                          On the other hand it does highlight my attaction towards drama. More than ever this thread is great at showing interest in drama verses action.

                                                          What do I want? and what paths are opening up to take action and why do I take those paths?

                                                          The idea of exposing fowl play is exciting, maddening and riviting.
                                                          The idea of canvasing for Obama or planting a permaculture garden is more mundane.
      • I couldn't get the link to work
        • from a physicist

          Tue, January 30, 2007 - 7:00 PM
          I think any thing is possible so far and we have to keep an open mind, really! I don't want to take any side. Some of the post seem crazy but who knows ...
          Here are few more facts to add to the discussion:
          -during a trip to the nacional institue of standard an dtechnology i learned that the steel structure was suposed to be studied there in order to determine why the building collapsed. I heard from the scientist themselves that they never got to any conclusion and that the steel has been recycled into cars asap.
          ...

          I always thought those theories were non-sense but now i am a little more open....

          i am not so passionated anyway by this precise fact because what i think is even more crazy is that during summer 2001 Bush administration was warned so many times about Bin Laden preparing an attack and never did anything
  • I will agree that you have to keep an open mind towards both sides at this point.
    However, a lot of questions still remain unanswered and the Bush administration has demonstrated it's willingness to lie in able to further it's own agenda on several occassions. ( WMD in Iraq anyone??)

    By the by, this has been a great thread demonstrating excellent points of view on both sides.
    • Uncle... reading your posts is exsausting. You are one mighty passionate pendulam....

      "The fact that what you see clouds your critical faculties is the point... you think you see something that validates your belief. Like a religious person summoning a spirit, or a creationist altering science to meet their needs."

      ....and posts like that might be taken as a bit talky downey by some if your not carefull. I've heard there are a few folk around these parts who actually are aware of that and take it into consideration when they speak their mind. Just a thought.

      AAAAAAannnywho...

      "That *ONE* thing doesn't debunk the theory... the whole article does. Did you stop when you disagreed, or did you read the whole thing?"

      I sure did read the whole thing, and it was as predictable as you accusing me of NOT reading the whole thing. Some well thought out points in it to, but I am not convinced there was any HARD, UNDENIABLE proof that Nineyleven was NOT an inside job.

      "none of you seem to be asking WHY???"

      Um....really....have you ben reading the posts? Or perhaps you where to busy ranting when Chris asked some pretty pointed questions.

      "Why would they do it?"

      Power, Money, Control, Ideoligy...why are ANY attrocities commited.

      "Why would they use planes if the building is loaded with explosives?"

      Too much of an obvious smoking gun.

      You would have to close down the building for a bit (which it was a few days before the event IIRC, Chris can you correct that?) If the building went down after that, people would be looking to place blame on who was responsible for the security of the building (which IIR is actually a BUSH family member). Having airplanes smack into the building shifts the attention away in a BIG way and provides a culturaly familiar threat and an excuse to kill more brown people..I mean kill terrorrists.... I mean spread freedom... I mean porotect the homeland.. I mean...froinlaven!

      "Why would they somehow manipulate and control thousands upon thousands of people... across multiple countries... arranging middle easterners to be on the plans?"

      Who are the people saying there where middle easterners on those planes, and more importantly...where is that question coming from?

      "How could they possibly contain the whistle blowers that would come out... if they can't stop the media from finding out about a blow job in the white house?"

      Fear and the fact that people as a majority would never want to believe that somthing like this could actually happen. Reporters are not immune to that. Not to mention that there ARE reporters trying to report it, but they are grossly outnummbered by folks like yourself.

      "There is absolutely no viable motive for us to have done this. The media would pick up BILLIONS of dollars by breaking this.... why haven't they? Are they controlled too?"

      Yes. Yes they are controled. AND...the billions that the media would have made PAILS in comparison to the billions beeing made by the military industrial complex, Federal government and Private security, construction and weapons developers due to the the whistle NOT being blown.

      "Why would intellectuals from all over the world, like Noam Chomsky, be forced into a position of making a statement? You think Noam and the experts were bought off?"

      Why are these people less susceptible then everyone else to skeptisism, fear, disbelief and outright denial in the face of somthing to fucked up to believe?

      "Why are there multiude of experts reporting what they are reporting?"

      I repeat the above statement and ask you to take a breatth and read about all the other experts who are saying things that support the inside job point of view...or as I like to call it the Ijpov.

      Heres a question or 2 for yourself. Do you think that Hitler just spun a wheel that landed on genocide when he was trying to figure out how to bring Germany out of famine and into power? Do you think that our nation is attrocity proof cause we have the word freedom thrown about so much? Because you can BUY what you want and SAY what you want?

      Americans current government is funded by the Christian right. These are people that OPENLY condone the murder of those that stand against them ..ON NATIONAL FUCKING TV DUDE!!!

      I think you are blinded both by your fear and by your own good nature. Your too afraid to REALLY see what this means and you are too good natured to think that someone might look you in the eye and smile as they twist a knife in your heart.
      Well guess what. People do that ALL THE TIME, and history is full of leaders who have done just that to thier OWN PEOPLE. Know what a Gulag is?

      When its in a history book, its far away from you, when its happening in your own country....well, people just dont want to believe it till it's to late.
      • Unsu...
         
        Damn... bravo Eugene.

        I do agree that Uncle F is quite good-natured and unsuspecting... he has voiced many times that he can't believe that people actually believe this stuff.

        What I've been wanting to say (for a few days) is:

        Uncle F, you keep saying "where's the evidence?" and you consider those skeptics' articles to be thorough debunking of evidence.

        Well, maybe if you were to stop being so shocked that people actually believe this stuff... and entertain the possibility that it may PERHAPS be true - not that you should believe it yet, but just to accept that people have good reason to wonder - then maybe you would open your mind to the evidence that *DOES* exist. ???

        You also are clinging to the idea that all of the scholars agree with the official story. It's been pointed out numerous times in this thread that there are a number of scholars who accept the theory of demolition and have amassed large amounts of evidence to support the claim.

        PLEASE, just go and Google the name "Dr. Steven Jones" (or "Steven E. Jones") and you will find a vast number of good links that you should check out. But first, you could read the Wikipedia entry about him. It gives a good background into his education and history.
        I believe he is telling what he believes to be the truth... and he has the credentials to state such claims and be taken seriously.

        So, if and when you decide to start taking this topic seriously enough to be open to the possibility of evidence... you will find plenty of it.

        Eugene made a point in response to a question of yours. I want to add my thoughts on that question:

        You said: "How could they possibly contain the whistle blowers that would come out... if they can't stop the media from finding out about a blow job in the white house?"

        Eugene said: "Fear and the fact that people as a majority would never want to believe that somthing like this could actually happen. Reporters are not immune to that. Not to mention that there ARE reporters trying to report it, but they are grossly outnummbered by folks like yourself."

        First of all, the (possibly hundreds of) people who were, or would have been involved in (who knew about and helped carry out) the mission of demolishing the WTC... they want to live. They want their families to live. They probably had to undergo a certain amount of initial shock and then, (eventually) acceptance at whatever stage of their career they were first made aware of their employers' activities... and then, they would have to think "bigger". As in, I can't stop these people... I have a family to protect + I want $$$. Those people wouldn't blow that whistle for any amount of money because they know they'd be found and promptly disposed of if they even thought about it.
        Besides, no mainstream media faction would dare air their stories even if they did attempt to blow the whistle. The media is absolutely and undoubtedly controlled. Why else would they only have aired the collapse of WTC 7 one time right after it happened?!?! In the following weeks post-9/11 they aired footage of WTC 1+2 falling thousands of times and NEVER once re-aired the WTC 7 collapse. Why do you think that's the case? Think about it for a sec!
        And think about the fact that most Americans don't EVEN KNOW that a 3rd building collapsed. The media did a really good job of *mostly* keeping that from them.

        Plus, the past has proven that large numbers of people can keep secrets just fine until 30 years down the road once the real story becomes de-classified. But then it's too late and no media seems to air those stories either. How come? Isn't that breaking news that all of a sudden a significant moment in history is changed to something completely different? Our government has de-classified numerous cases of "false flag" ("Synthetic Terror") operations in which they've committed acts of terror and blamed it on an enemy (or a country they wanted to invade) in order to gain public support on a particular mission that would otherwise have the country divided. There is now hard proof that they have always done that as a method of war-mongoring. What's so different about our country now than in 1967 under pres L.B.J. when he staged the attack of the USS Liberty (operation Northwoods)? That whole story is now declassified and NUMEROUS people from various agencies have come out (almost 40 yrs later) and told the truth about what happened.

        And what do you think is a good explanation for Larry Silverstein's suspicious activities pertaining to the transfer of ownership and insurance that all took place in the months just before 9/11? Please read the claims made in this link:

        911research.wtc7.net/wtc/bac...ers.html

        Even though the 911research people are akin to the "conspiracy theorists" who you apparently think are completely insane, they make some pretty grounded points at that website. And if you want evidence, they have it. I'm sure some of it could be "debunked" and then only the other 90% of the evidence would remain - not yet debunked. ;)
        • My internet time has been limited, so forgive my absence as original poster. Thanks, Sayr & Eugene, for your thoughtful and considerate posts. I always welcome debate, especially when it is an intelligent discussion. It is the process of dialectics that makes for evolutionary dialogue/discussion. Let's attack the message not the messenger.

          Uncle Fishbits, you're so quick to defend he debunking of the widely-accepted evidence that supports the theories that point towards government complicity. You accuse us of not doing our homework [unjustifiably, I might add], but I truly believe that if you sift through all the reports and papers written by not only the reporters and scientists and eyewitnesses, but also the government itself, and it's agents, I think you would arrive at a different conclusion. I, too, when I began my 9-11 odyssey years ago, had to deal with the psychological process that accompanied by it. I left my first 9-11 symposium questioning my own sanity or cognitive dissonance.

          I forget what famous philosopher said "[Revolutionary] truth is first ridiculed, then reviled, and later, eventually accepted."

          There's been so much rehash and regurgitation, I'm not sure where to begin, but I think I will just point towards references you may want to check out....[for all of you, not just Fishbits]...

          There is a fairly recent film, "9-11: Press for Truth," that i think is the best one to date. It is excellently produced and well thought-out. Objective in its tone, and honest. What's impactful most about the film is that most of the media is culled from mainstream news and the liars themselves clearly depicting their deceptions. It also follows the "Jersey Girls," four 9-11 widows who relentlessly fight for the truth. You can watch it for free on Google Video.

          The film uses Paul Thompson's "Terror Timeline" for reference, which is merely a chronological almanac of 9-11, decades before the attack and also the aftermath. It was published by Harper Collins [whatever that means to you]. There is so many anomalies in the official story just clearly illustrated by connecting the dots reported in the daily news.

          Okay.......

          What is really interesting to me is the history of Al-Qaeda. One thing one must remember is that foreign policy is such a shadowy business. It truly is a chess game of strategy, pitting opponents [everyone but yrself] against each other or aligning for periods of time to gain a greater political goal. Bin-Laden was trained by the CIA in the '70's to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. The first bombing of the WTC was in 1993 was executed by a diverse crew of Middle Eastern men. They came from all over the Middle East, and performed various and separate jobs while waiting to be deployed. The one thing they all had in common was that EVERYONE OF THEM HAD BEEN TRAINED BY THE CIA in Afghanistan. How did they all come together in Manhattan to perform this bombing. "Frontline" ran a very interesting show about it that pointed towards shadowy interplay between this group and the FBI! The show was promptly pulled from the archives.

          Google "Al-Qaeda, Pakistan ISI, CIA" and you'll find numerous articles of how the CIA and Pakistani's ISI helped to create Al-Qaeda, mainly for them to do their dirty work. I believe that Al-Qaeda was used by American forces in the Yugoslavian & Chechnen conflicts as well. I'm not a great historian but I highly recommend researching this topic to get a feel of how a gov't creates enemies to make the people bend.

          It's now accepted that Hitler burnt the Reichstag to take over Germany. One of the most telling things uttered by a Nazi officer: Hermann Goehring, the Minister of Propaganda, during the Nuremberg trials, knowing he was going to be hung, was quite candid with his testimony. At one point they asked him how did they get the people to support such an atrocity. He replied, "Of course the people don’t want war. But after all, it’s the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it’s a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger.” Sound familiar.....?

          Back to the CIA, ISI, & Al-Qaeda... I have mentioned above that it was reported by the Times of India and then confirmed by our own FBI that General Mahmoud Ahmad, then-director of the ISI, ordered the wire transfer of $100,000 to Mohammed Atta, alleged lead hijacker. Often in our criminal justice system, it is easier to track the money and make convictions that way. This man has gone unmolested by our Department of Justice, even though our top cops confirmed he was a chief financier of 9-11. I've also mentioned that there has only been one successful conviction for 9-11, and it turned out to be a dog & pony show, a chance in a courtroom for official anomalies to be court recorded.

          Motives??? These people had plenty of motivation. Go to the Project for a New American Century's website. This is basically a thinktank of all the war hawks and the Military Industrial Prison Complex. Co-signers include: Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Jeb Bush, Richard Perle, etc. In September 0f 2000, they published a 98-page treatise entitled "Rebuilding America's Defenses." It's basically a plea to increase the war machine on all fronts, including militarizing space. It's a "The Cold War's over, it's time for America to step up to the plate as the supreme superpower... Near the end, it admits that the budget for this, and the people's support would make for a long, slow transformation, unless there was some "catastrophic, catalyzing" event, "like a new Pearl Harbor." One year later they got it--big time!

          Many foreign policy wonks have said that to control the Middle East and Central Asia will control the resources, i.e., oil & natural gas. And that will fuel their conquest for global primacy. Carter's Secretary of State wrote all about this: See "The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperatives": by Zbigniew Brzezinski.

          That's all the time I have right now, but I'll post more later...

          yr comrade,
          chris sia





          • One thing that, for me, helps puts things in perspective is that the leaders who run world powers arent thinking month to monoth or even just year to year. They think in generation to generation.
            Creating plans and strategies that span a great deal of time and massive amounts opf resources (people included).

            3000 people killed? Hell, 4 milllion are born each day, and no one likes sacrificing for the "greater good" then someone who is ideologically extreme.
            • I have taken everything into word... and don't know if I can possibly respond to all of this. I don't spend much time online, and I appreciate your dialogue. It will be interesting to read. I will get back to this as soon as I can figure out a format to reply to all this.... point by point maybe.
              • starting at the top... this is going to be a flood of posts... I don't know how else to do it!

                Starting with the first!
                =-=-=-=-=-=-=

                ME-- "That *ONE* thing doesn't debunk the theory... the whole article does. Did you stop when you disagreed, or did you read the whole thing?"
                EUGENE --*I sure did read the whole thing, and it was as predictable as you accusing me of NOT *reading the whole thing. Some well thought out points in it to, but I am not convinced *there was any HARD, UNDENIABLE proof that Nineyleven was NOT an inside job.

                ME:

                The problem here is that the logic is flawed. There is no reason to believe that he *WAS* part of an inside job. That is an assumption on your part. You cannot have hard deniable proof that he was NOT part of an inside job… as you cannot have proof of a negative.

                This is one of the main problems. You are looking for proof *THAT* it exists, not trying to find proof why *IT DOESN’T*. You are looking to prove your belief, not skeptically take the evidence and deduce it.
                • OCCAM's Razor!!!

                  The following is... a stretch of logic.... to say the least:

                  "Why would they do it?"
                  Power, Money, Control, Ideoligy...why are ANY attrocities commited.
                  "Why would they use planes if the building is loaded with explosives?"
                  Too much of an obvious smoking gun.


                  The logical leaps... the ability to be able to succeed on all these points... plan it, fund it, pull it off, keep everyone quiet.. especially with the extra "flair" of being over the top with the planes....

                  it is much simpler to fly a plane into a building after hijacking it, rather than loading a building with explosives, getting away with that... then flying planes into it as well, timing the explosives, or rigging them properly...etc.

                  The simplest answer is typically the best... and the amount of insurmountable odds in pulling this off raises it into question.

                  The simple position is to suggest the planes took down the building. Anything beyond that needs a lot of proof, and a lot of extraordinary evidence to convince most people. That evidence, in many people's opinion, is severely lacking...
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    "You would have to close down the building for a bit (which it was a few days before the event IIRC, Chris can you correct that?) If the building went down after that, people would be looking to place blame on who was responsible for the security of the building (which IIR is actually a BUSH family member). Having airplanes smack into the building shifts the attention away in a BIG way and provides a culturaly familiar threat and an excuse to kill more brown people..I mean kill terrorrists.... I mean spread freedom... I mean porotect the homeland.. I mean...froinlaven!"

                    It has been proven that plans were drawn up to go back into Iraq about WMD's well before 9/11. He already had been talking to people, and preparing them. He didn't need any other public support to go to war over there... he had the power, the money, and the will to go into war without anyone's opinions mattering. They *DID NOT* need to take down the WTC to pull this war off... by any means.

                    I did like the froinlaven bit.
                    • "Why would they somehow manipulate and control thousands upon thousands of people... across multiple countries... arranging middle easterners to be on the plans?"
                      Who are the people saying there where middle easterners on those planes, and more importantly...where is that question coming from?
                      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

                      There is proof because the families talked of their sons being on the plane, surprised they would do it, while other family members talk of their sons piousness..
                      www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...pf.html

                      here's a story about the guy on 93, and his fiancee speaks about how he fell into radical islam.
                      s3.amazonaws.com/911timeli...12703.html

                      there is so much documented evidence they were on the planes. They were on the boarding videos on the plane security cams!

                      But not understanding your conspiracy, the question came from here .... I knew you would make a passive claim that middle easterner's "might not" be on the plane. But they were. There is evidence all over the place..

                      It isn't necessary for me to prove that Middle Easterner's were on the plane... it is your need to prove they weren't. And not by suggesting that they were pigeonholed, but just coincidentally on the plane.. the money trail from all these guys is tight. The backgrounds and research is *very* tight. This is a well orchestrated and well funded escapade... and none of the proof that anyone pulled up had any connection to the US. All the money was Saudi.

                      Why would well funded, radical islamists that have been proven to have gone to flight school, and proven to have had directions from the middle east... as reported from different intel in Germany, in Pakistan, and in London (not to mention INTERPOL on the whole)...

                      why would these people be on the plane?
                      • "Fear and the fact that people as a majority would never want to believe that somthing like this could actually happen. Reporters are not immune to that. Not to mention that there ARE reporters trying to report it, but they are grossly outnummbered by folks like yourself. "

                        Folks like myself? I take offense to that. Skeptical, rational... and looking at all the evidence available.

                        We don't want to believe this could happen?!?!?! They flew planes into our buildings and knocked them over and kiled people. That is more than enough. Thinking that the government is implicit is such a logical leap it blow my mind.

                        "FEAR" is what sells news. People as a majority have an insatiable appetite for controversy, drama, and violence. Look at the news, or COPS, or any reality show...

                        Is this something that is too much for normal people to comprehend, but you are special enough to be able to see through the bullshit? Everyone else is not as intelligent, or analytical, or capable of dealing with this horror?

                        Who's talking down now?

                        Anyhoo... I don't by the reporter thing. Reporters work for news stations, news stations are owned by a bunch of investors,and investors are looking for money. They are meant to report what sells, not the truth. That being said, a scandal like this would sell better than ever. The news companies are slobbering for anything like this... look how they react to a cum stained dress or some sort of pedophilia paige issues on the capitol.

                        They take anything they can, blow it out of proportion, and reap huge sums of cash from the advertising and positioning.

                        Reporters would break this if it had merit.
                        • *Yes. Yes they are controled. AND...the billions that the media would have made PAILS in comparison to the billions beeing made by the *military industrial complex, Federal government and Private security, construction and weapons developers due to the the whistle NOT *being blown.

                          The "military industrial complex" is a word you have heard in this music, and elsewhere, and it takes on a cultish idea behind it. I agree with the concept, but "military" will do. Anything else sounds like a cult's brainwashing. It happens to all of us, but I just don't think you are *thinking* about the words you are using so much as regurgitating others. I DO NOT MEAN TO BE RUDE, but that is how it feels.

                          The "Military industrial complex" is just a buzz word....

                          But the fact stands... THAT thing is WHOLLY different than the news world.

                          Both can make there own money, and they don't effect each other.

                          They are mutually exclusive.... the press and the military do not interact in a consortium, or connected way. If you believe that to be the case, you will need evidence to prove the assertion. Otherwise,

                          you are suggesting that a network of hundreds of thousands of people are drones... that will not report this? That will remain quiet?

                          That no one has a conscious or ethic as deep as yours? You alone need to whistle blow this?

                          It doesn't make sense. A secretary, an engineer... someone would have caught wind and blabbered.
                          • "Why are these people less susceptible then everyone else to skeptisism, fear, disbelief and outright denial in the face of somthing to fucked up to believe? "

                            Again... Noam cannot fathom this, nor can other intellectuals...

                            but you can?

                            I don't buy it.
                            • "I repeat the above statement and ask you to take a breatth and read about all the other experts who are saying things that support the inside job point of view...or as I like to call it the Ijpov. "

                              Then give me that list and I will read into them. I haven't seen any other experts who attest to this... at least ones that haven't already been roundly rejected.

                              PLEASE GIVE ME A LIST OF THE PEOPLE YOU BELIEVE TO BE IN SUPPORT OF THIS... seriously, I haven't seen a proper list, and I would like to research people you trust.
                              • "Do you think that Hitler just spun a wheel that landed on genocide when he was trying to figure out how to bring Germany out of famine and into power?"

                                Are you comparing pre WWII Germany with current day United States? The climate are COMPLETELY opposite. Our econnomy was as strong as it had ever been... the deficit was gone... there is absolutely no comparison here. NONE. Except that you want to compare Hitler with Bush, as invoking Hitler squanders objectivity in favour of conspiratorial self righteousness....

                                when you invoke hitler... you chill conversation by making people irrational. The fact is there is no reason to use him in this situation unless you are trying to cause emotion. Bush has not systematically and uniformly killed like Hitler or Stalin has... by any means. He is a prick, Cheney is a ball sucker... they *ARE* EVIL TERRIBLE TWISTED FUCKED UP MEN...

                                don't get me wrong.. they have worked outside some of normal Geneva conventions, and challenged it in the Hague with lawyers... but they have done so legally, and have worked within most wartime conventions, unlike the Middle East with guerilla beheadings and the like.. If you look at the history of war... or who has done what...

                                The US have carried out very VERY few war crimes... (comparatively)
                                en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_crimes

                                compared to say... Unit 731 in Japan
                                10,000 Russian and Chinese prisoners operated on without anesthesia ...
                                en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

                                • "Do you think that our nation is attrocity proof cause we have the word freedom thrown about so much? Because you can BUY what you want and SAY what you want?

                                  huh?

                                  Why would I think that? From... our ill prepared responses to victim's of non terrorist attacks like Katrina, to...

                                  oh god. Abu Ghraib, what we are doing down at Guantanamo...

                                  I am sick of what we are doing... the imperialism, the irrationalism.... the credulity and mindless automotan mindlessness we have....

                                  the voting system. JEEEEEZUS that's fucked.

                                  But I don't have a clue what you are trying to say. It sounds like you are arguing with me that I am so black and white that I believe you either "love it or leave it"

                                  I hate it. I also know this is one of the best countries around. Tripwire will say Canada. And Dj Montenegro will say Costa Rica.

                                  I say SF bay, up to Vancouver is the way.... it is beautiful.

                                  there are people like you and me and Sayr and all this community that rocks so hard....

                                  I just don't understand your sentence at all. But I think the answer is "NO"
                                  • Americans current government is funded by the Christian right. These are people that OPENLY condone the murder of those that stand against them ..ON NATIONAL FUCKING TV DUDE!!!

                                    I think you are blinded both by your fear and by your own good nature. Your too afraid to REALLY see what this means and you are too good natured to think that someone might look you in the eye and smile as they twist a knife in your heart.
                                    Well guess what. People do that ALL THE TIME, and history is full of leaders who have done just that to thier OWN PEOPLE. Know what a Gulag is?
                                    =-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-

                                    Trust me.... what you are comparing then, and now... is way off. The gulag?

                                    Wouldn't we be there if it was really happening now? I know it is bad....

                                    and I know we aren't all free and clear of evil and poor choices...

                                    but how emotional you rant is above means this is getting away from you.

                                    Saying *I* am too afraid is just like me saying that *YOU* are too naive and irrational to see the truth.

                                    I don't want to degenerate into that sort of talk.

                                    Rational, topical thoughts... facts. Don't bring me into this.

                                    Prove your point.
                                    • SAYR..
                                      "Uncle F, you keep saying "where's the evidence?" and you consider those skeptics' articles to be thorough debunking of evidence.
                                      Well, maybe if you were to stop being so shocked that people actually believe this stuff... and entertain the possibility that it may PERHAPS be true - not that you should believe it yet, but just to accept that people have good reason to wonder - then maybe you would open your mind to the evidence that *DOES* exist. ???"


                                      GOOD REASON TO WONDER? No need to wonder. Just the facts... the truth. Speculation, assuming... means nothing.

                                      Why do you think I don't believe in this?

                                      Because I automatically thought it wasn't true? I used to believe what you believe... and then started learning about architecture at my new hotel development job. I met people that were on the panel reviewing the data. I work with people that are in construction and dumb as bricks, and people that blow things up, and people that work on spaceflight and aerodynamic stuff that have talked about jet fuel.

                                      I started getting exposed to all these things, and researchign deeper.... and found ZERO evidence.

                                      I am totally *NOT* shocked people believe in "stuff"... just that they entertain their speculations as fact without any proof.

                                      Your will and need to believe doesn't make it so. I know people believe in these sort of things. It is the *WAY* people believe in things that amazes me.

                                      Again... you need evidence.

                                      Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That is why I am so interested in this. Your claims are FANTASTIC (in a good way). It would make the evening news for weeks, then a trial, then a movie, a billion books from all involved. It would be awesome. Simply the biggest thing ever.

                                      But you guys are being contradictary.....

                                      you are saying people "can't believe" that this sort of thing would happen, hence they don't believe in it.

                                      And now I am being asked to know that some people believe in it.

                                      I agree with all of that. I agree that anything can and possibly does exist.

                                      After looking at the evidence and getting past my belief that it *DID* exist, I found there is no reason to believe that it *DOES* exist.
                                      • Steven Jones Debunked:::: it was molten steel. It was molten metal. Labratory results would prove it... but occam's razor would suggest it was informally called steel... and was really just aluminum... another metal used throughout the building's core.

                                        "What about the “melted steel” that 9/11 conspiracy theorists claim was at Ground Zero? Dr. Steven Jones’ popular article cites several anecdotal sources speaking about flowing or pooled samples of melted steel found at Ground Zero.8 However, the sources in question are informal observations of “steel” at Ground Zero, not laboratory results.9 To many people, any grayish metal looks sufficiently like steel to call it “steel” when speaking informally. To actually establish that the substance in question is steel, we need analytical laboratory results using atomic absorption (AA) or another suitable test. It seems far more likely that the metal seen by the contractors was aluminum, a component of the WTC structural material that melts at a much lower temperature than steel and can look superficially similar to it.
                                        • "You also are clinging to the idea that all of the scholars agree with the official story. It's been pointed out numerous times in this thread that there are a number of scholars who accept the theory of demolition and have amassed large amounts of evidence to support the claim. "

                                          Again... The Jones bit is not compelling without knowing what kind of metal it was. In a building like that, with all the aliminum between floors on the facade.. wouldn't it be just as easy to assume it is aluminum rather than steel?

                                          But that being said, give me some other scholars to look at. Also... don't you think Jones' endorsement of cold fusion showing his scientific method needing a couple checks and balances? He seems to jump to conclusions?
                                          • Again... I respect this:

                                            "I believe he is telling what he believes to be the truth... and he has the credentials to state such claims and be taken seriously."

                                            I don't care what someone believes, so much as someone knows.

                                            I am not so sure about this....

                                            "As in, I can't stop these people... I have a family to protect + I want $$$. Those people wouldn't blow that whistle for any amount of money because they know they'd be found and promptly disposed of if they even thought about it. "


                                            You are totally suggesting that there is a guerilla covert mob in this country that threatens the lives of and extorts thousands of families and no one is bringing this up? Beyond problems of hiding these actions, the money, and keeping every family member and other people that find out quiet... this is too illogical to fight against.

                                            Do you have proof of this claim?
                                            • "Besides, no mainstream media faction would dare air their stories even if they did attempt to blow the whistle. The media is absolutely and undoubtedly controlled. Why else would they only have aired the collapse of WTC 7 one time right after it happened?!?! In the following weeks post-9/11 they aired footage of WTC 1+2 falling thousands of times and NEVER once re-aired the WTC 7 collapse. Why do you think that's the case? Think about it for a sec! "

                                              I did think about it.

                                              I think the footage is a lot less compelling, a lot less inciteful, and a lot less awe inspiring than the two towers falling. the news is about money, and that is about keeping viewers. How do you do that? WTC7? Or the titular moment.

                                              You asking me to think of things... how about you think of this...

                                              WTC7

                                              While it did not receive any direct impact form the planes, how much debris hit at as the main towers collapsed and what damage did it cause?

                                              To what extent (if any) did the shock or vibrations caused by the collapse of WTC1 & 2 affect the integrity of WTC7?
                                              Did any unseen damage to the WTC7 foundations occur in the collapse of WTC 1 & 2?
                                              Did any of the fire suppression systems in WTC7 function?
                                              • "What's so different about our country now than in 1967 under pres L.B.J. when he staged the attack of the USS Liberty (operation Northwoods)? That whole story is now declassified and NUMEROUS people from various agencies have come out (almost 40 yrs later) and told the truth about what happened."

                                                That is a logical fallacy. You can't argue against a fallacy.

                                                There are so many there... but the main point is that your point is a red herring.

                                                It has nothing to do with this cover up.

                                                By suggesting that one successful cover up means that they can cover this one up successfully is illogical, you dig? Same thing with keeping Deep Throat a secret for so long. That doesn't mean squat.

                                                By your logic, I can say the fact that they didn't cover up the wire tapping in the exec office during Nixon is a reason they WON'T be able to cover it up.

                                                You dig?

                                                You guys have been sort of condescending to me... suggesting it is my good natured naivety, and that I am not able to cope with the reality of this situation. That I am not as good as you guys who see the light. I have coped plenty, and I am not that good natured.

                                                I also have been *VERY* patient with these arguments... simply defending your desire to believe your viewpoints, without offering any conclusive evidence at all. You do realize this, right?

                                                I know this world has huge problems. And I am sick of the US... I am. We are GOING DOWN.. and soon. We don't need internal problems for that to happen. It makes me sad to think a nuke will possibly go off in our country because of how blind and arrogant we have been...

                                                but to call me naive because I don't buy into your nonsense doesn't make your case any stronger.

                                                And frankly.... some of your collective arguments aren't so hot. Check these out.

                                                www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
                                                • "And what do you think is a good explanation for Larry Silverstein's suspicious activities pertaining to the transfer of ownership and insurance that all took place in the months just before 9/11? Please read the claims made in this link: "

                                                  I did, unlike the link I sent that easily explains your theory.....

                                                  To conspiracy theorists such as Alex Jones at prisonplanet.com, this quote seems to be a "smoking gun" because they interpret the phrase "pull it" to be "industry jargon for taking a building down with explosives." (15) Silverstein seems to be saying that he and the firefighters decided to pull (destroy) Building 7, and watched it fall after authorizing the demolition. No building could be controllably demolished so quickly, the conspiracy theorists go on to argue, so WTC 7 must have been prepared for demolition long in advance.

                                                  On closer inspection, this supposedly devastating evidence does not seem to mean what the 9/11 Truth Movement thinks it means. There is far from unanimous industry agreement that the phrase "pull it" always signifies a controlled demolition with explosives--more specific phrases such as "pull away" would be used to designate the specific operation to be performed. (16) And of course, "pull" has many common language uses quite separate from demolition lingo. But if Silverstein wasn't describing a decision to destroy WTC 7, what could the words "pull it" mean? A good place to seek the answer is this September 9, 2005 statement by Mr. Dara McQuillan, a spokesperson for Larry Silverstein:

                                                  In the afternoon of September 11, Mr. Silverstein
                                                  spoke to the Fire Department Commander on site
                                                  at Seven World Trade Center. The Commander told
                                                  Mr. Silverstein that there were several firefighters in
                                                  the building working to contain the fires. Mr.
                                                  Silverstein expressed his view that the most important
                                                  thing was to protect the safety of those firefighters,
                                                  including, if necessary, to have them withdraw
                                                  from the building.

                                                  Later in the day, the Fire Commander ordered
                                                  his firefighters out of the building and at 5:20 p.m.
                                                  the building collapsed. No lives were lost at Seven
                                                  World Trade Center on September 11, 2001.

                                                  As noted above, when Mr. Silverstein was
                                                  recounting these events for a television documentary
                                                  he stated, "I said, you know, we've had such
                                                  terrible loss of life. Maybe the smartest thing to do
                                                  is to pull it." Mr. McQuillan has stated that by "it,"
                                                  Mr Silverstein meant the contingent of firefighters
                                                  remaining in the building (emphasis added). (17)



                                                  McQuillan's response also indicated that firefighters were present at WTC 7 to evacuate tenants, and worked at the site until late in the afternoon shortly before the collapse occurred. There is in fact abundant evidence that firefighters were present in and around WTC 7 in evacuation and rescue missions until late in the day on 9/11. According to Fire Department Chief Daniel Nigro:

                                                  The most important operational decision to be
                                                  made that afternoon was [that] the collapse [of the
                                                  WTC towers] had damaged 7 World Trade
                                                  Center ... It had very heavy fire on many floors and
                                                  I ordered the evacuation of an area sufficient
                                                  around to protect our members, so we had to give
                                                  up some rescue operations that were going on at the
                                                  time (emphasis added) and back the people away
                                                  far enough so that if 7 World Trade did collapse,
                                                  we [wouldn't] lose any more people. We continued
                                                  to operate on what we could from that distance
                                                  and approximately an hour and a half after that
                                                  order was [given], at 5:30 in the afternoon, World
                                                  Trade Center collapsed completely. (18)



                                                  Another first responder adds that there were "tremendous, tremendous fires going on. Finally they pulled (emphasis added) us out." (19) The first-hand accounts of rescue operations at WTC 7 tell a consistent story, and the latter quote also uses the word "pull" to describe the removal of firefighters from the vicinity of the building, just as McQuillan's statement does. Indeed, there is large agreement between McQuillan's response and the testimony of the firefighters, including the fact that: (a) firefighters were in fact in the vicinity of WTC 7 on 9/11; (b) their activities involved evacuation and rescue missions; (c) firefighters remained near WTC 7 until late in the afternoon of 9/11; (d) firefighters realized that WTC 7 would probably fall by approximately 3 PM on 9/11; and (e) firefighters pulled back from the building shortly after this realization, and watched the building collapse at approximately 5:20 PM. Despite the objections of conspiracy theorists, the "official stow" is both logically coherent and supported by evidence.

                                                  By contrast, the story told by the 9/11 Truth Movement is riddled with holes. It assumes that Larry Silverstein destroyed WTC Building 7, presumably in order to claim a huge insurance payoff. But if this is so, why would he tell the world of his plot on a PBS special? Furthermore, what relationship does Silverstein have with the United States government who, according to conspiracy theorists, destroyed the WTC buildings in order to terrorize its citizens into accepting domination by a police state? (20) And if the government controlled the demolition of the WTC buildings in order to strike fear into its citizens, why one this one case would it wait until all of the tenants were evacuated from WTC 7 so that there were no reported casualties? (21) The government's strategy appears wildly inconsistent in the Troth Movement account--killing nearly 3,000 people in the destruction of the two main towers, while allowing an entire afternoon for the tenants of WTC 7 to escape. We should also note that the alleged 9/11 plot was needlessly complicated, since the building was wired for a controlled demolition and targeted to be hit by airplanes--why not just do the controlled demolition, ditch the airplanes and blame it on the terrorists of your choice?
                                                  • By linking a site that has an agenda in proving their case, I don't find it that objective.

                                                    I don't mind the skeptic stuff because THEY AREN'T CLAIMING ANYTHING.. or any agenda. They are simply saying the truth movements assertion's are riddled with holes.

                                                    If you are looking for truth on the internet, on a site with an agenda, it will be hard to uncover any real facts.
                                                    • "Even though the 911research people are akin to the "conspiracy theorists" who you apparently think are completely insane, they make some pretty grounded points at that website. And if you want evidence, they have it. I'm sure some of it could be "debunked" and then only the other 90% of the evidence would remain - not yet debunked. ;)"

                                                      What evidence? You show me....

                                                      becuase everything on this thread hasn't been successful, and I am not an internet guy, and I am not looking to spend more time arguing this.

                                                      I am nearing the end of replying to everything... and albeit the only way I know how to respond...

                                                      I showed you the kindness of responding to everything. Reading over it... consuming it... thinking about it... and responding.

                                                      I am sure you will say this is too much to go over, but the juxt is that there is no evidence that is compelling enough for me to believe this conspiracy, and until something interesting comes along,

                                                      I say the jury is out. I am simply waiting for the moment they rewrite the history books as you suggest. I imagine it will be awhile.
                                                      • "Uncle Fishbits, you're so quick to defend he debunking of the widely-accepted evidence that supports the theories that point towards government complicity. "

                                                        And you guys are so quick to pick and choose a doctor, or a scholar, that has something to say, out of context, that supports your theory...

                                                        let's move on.

                                                        just give me scholar after scholar... point by point. I will find the full actual thought or quote that you are misquoting for your needs. Like Silverstein. Or the guy with the Pentagon. Etc. Etc.

                                                        I think i have done a fine job exposing that there is no basis in evidence for your claims. Until that comes around, there is no justifiable reason to believe it.

                                                        Thanks. I will be around, but I doubt I can respond like this. Again.... remember that you are defending your position, not supplying evidence.

                                                        By trying to work holes in my argument, you are missing the point.

                                                        I have no claim... I have no theory. I am making no assertion... so you cannot suggest I am naive, or what have you.

                                                        You need to stop focusing on me, and start focusing on bolstering your weak and logically flawed beliefs.

                                                        (PS--- I never meant to talk down about that. Logical and cognitive illusions and mistakes happen to everyone, even me. Like I said, I *used* to believe in this too... I have been exposed to too much truth to believe in this anymore... but I still have my logical misakes all the time.. so don't think I claim to be smart or better or holier than thou... we are all one people. This is the collective consciousness.... )

  • What disappoints me about this thread is that the verbal snafus are so disconcertingly flimsy that they undermine the whole discussion. On the other hand discussion has inspired me by its wisdom, intelligence and commitment.

    Anyone can find solid disturbing anomalies in the 9-11 story, for example my favorite is the historically unprecedented spike in "puts" on the airline industry stocks the week before 9-11. Clearly people knew ahead of time and they were not pursued. Why?

    Is 9-11 conspiracy a possibility? Of course, as shocking as that might be. History is replete with examples of similar cases and this case is replete with anomalies. Has 9-11 conspiracy been proven - hardly.

    I ask myself "what do I want in life?" Is it proving 9-11 conspiracy what I want? If so why do I want that? To get revenge? What does revenge give? To feel good? To stop more wrongs? Is 9-11 conspiracy the best or most efficient way to stop more wrongs, to feel good and help people?

    It's easy to say what I don't want such as suffering, war, Bush etc but harder, riskier but much more catalyzing to take a stand for what I want and then be held accountable for my action.






    • >Anyone can find solid disturbing anomalies in the 9-11 story, for example my favorite is the historically unprecedented spike in "puts" on the airline industry stocks the week before 9-11. Clearly people knew ahead of time and they were not pursued. Why?

      Sorry, debunked. But of course, since it's in the official report, it has to be a coverup... right?

      from the 9/11 Commission Report, chapter 5, note 130:
      Highly publicized allegations of insider trading in advance of 9/11 generally rest on reports of unusual pre-9/11 trading activity in companies whose stock plummeted after the attacks. Some unusual trading did in fact occur, but each such trade proved to have an innocuous explanation. For example, the volume of put options--investments that pay off only when a stock drops in price--surged in the parent companies of United Airlines on September 6 and American Airlines on September 10--highly suspicious trading on its face. Yet, further investigation has revealed that the trading had no connection with 9/11. A single U.S.-based institutional investor with no conceivable ties to al Qaeda purchased 95 percent of the UAL puts on September 6 as part of a trading strategy that also included buying 115,000 shares of American on September 10. Similarly, much of the seemingly suspicious trading in American on September 10 was traced to a specific U.S.-based options trading newsletter, faxed to its subscribers on Sunday, September 9, which recommended these trades. These examples typify the evidence examined by the investigation. The SEC and the FBI, aided by other agencies and the securities industry, devoted enormous resources to investigating this issue, including securing the cooperation of many foreign governments. These investigators have found that the apparently suspicious consistently proved innocuous. Joseph Cella interview (Sept. 16, 2003; May 7, 2004; May 10-11, 2004); FBI briefing (Aug. 15, 2003); SEC memo, Division of Enforcement to SEC Chair and Commissioners, "Pre-September 11, 2001 Trading Review," May 15, 2002; Ken Breen interview (Apr. 23, 2004); Ed G. interview (Feb. 3, 2004).

      ---
      rodent (putting the eek in geek)
      • UMMMMM......

        nice work all... i'm on a quickie... the 9-11 Commission Report? you're actually quoting that piece of whitewash???

        just look at the personnel... and this is MERELY FACT:

        The first executive director--whose position determines what evidence the Commission will look at, who will testify, the who's, the what's, this position is the gatekeeper for the Commission--the first Director named was Henry Kissinger!!! Now if the naming of him to be the director, if that doesn't seem odd to you, then well, you need to go back and read a little history of the U.S.'s intervention in Central & South America, back when Kissinger was good ol' Secretary of State. He was a brilliant and shrewd policy wonk and is responsible in shadowing the U.S.'s role in so many nation's conflict -torn nations: from Guatemala to Chile. When his appt when through, the 9-11 Family Steering Committee, expressed huge concerns. One of the Jersey widows questioned him about any conflicts of interest he may have, and then named off some oil conglomerates, he became very agitated, and shortly stepped down from the post.

        Philip Zelikow was the next executive director named to the post. Oh.... here's a non-interested party. He was on the Bush-Cheney transition team and I believe also served on Bu$h I's National Security Council. He's so chummy with Condo-lies-alot Rice, he co-authored a book with her.



        Then, Bush appointed as co-chair, Thomas Kean, former NJ gov, and.... huge investor [and I believe, served as CEO for Amerada Hess, one of the largest oil conglomerates]. guess who his business partner, none other than Osama bin Laden's brother-in-law...

        The other co-chairman is Lee Hamilton, who is known as the "cover up king." He also served on the Iran-Contra & October Surprise Investigations and found absolutely no government malfeasance!!!

        If you look at every one of the Commissioner's bios, you will find that every one of them has ties to either: the Bu$h Dynasty, big oil and/or weapons industries [hello, the Military Industrial Complex...] and the Intelligence communities...

        And Bush and Cheney pleaded for Congress NOT TO HAVE ANY KIND OF INVESTIGATION, THAT IT WOULD HAMPER EFFORTS TO "CATCH" THESE TERRORISTS!!!" It took over a year before they appointed all these insiders to the a fully -loaded commission. Clinton's blow job, the NASA disasters, the Kennedy assassination, all these commissions were appointed within one week. and the budget... $30 mil, compared to the hundreds of millions that were devoted to Clinton's blow job.

        Then, the white house refused to turn over a gazillion docs. The ones that were turned over were sometimes so heavily redacted, that half the info was blacked out. What do these people have to hide? Why don't they want to help the Commission to fully have access to every bit of info, esp when there's only been one conviction for 9-11?

        Why did Bush, Cheney & Rice all refuse to testify? Finally Rice did under huge pressure, after the PDB of August that's headline read "Bin Laden to ATtack Inside the U.S."? Finally when Bush agreed to testify it was only with Papa Cheney [known as "edgar" by the CIA, in reference to a famous ventriloquist], and behind closed doors, with only the co-chairs presiding, no recording, and their notes had to be approved.

        The SEC provided a list of "unusual" put options before 9-11, including AMerican & United Airlines, as well as Morgan, Stanely, DEan & Witter [huge Wall St tenants in the towers. One of the biggest "put" options places was an investment bank whose CEO was "Buzzy" Krongrad, once head of CIA, or deputy director. WHy does the rank & file of Wall St Directors match the CIA's list of director's?

        Is there anyone who had "debunked" the role of GEneral Mahmoud in 9-11? I haven't noticed anyone's postings that have addressed what I think are the most disturbing & obvious questions...

        Also, all the key players in our command chain were MIA in the early hours of the attacks. They all stated when they eventually took post before the Commission. [Not under oath, by the way]. All of them are refuted by former Terrorism Czar, Richard Clarke's book, "AGainst All Enemies," whose proof had to be approved by the Bush team. Clarke's book has all of them giving contradictory info about their whereabouts. Why are they lying???

        My last post on this thread will be a extensive list of reliable resources. Just don't have the time yet. The film I mention is excellent: "9-11: Press for Truth," and here's the url for the book I mentioned [published by Harper Collins].

        www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp

        yr comrade,
        chris sia
        • Ok, if the commission was so rigged, then why did the Bush Administration fight so hard to NOT impliment any of the recommendations from the commission? Wouldn't you think that they would list recommendations that Bush could just rubberstamp?

          But, knowing how conspiracy theorists minds work, they'll undoubtedly argue something to the effect of "well, they had to make oposite recommendations so that they would have the illusion of being impartial..." or some such nonsense.

          ---
          rodent (putting the eek in geek)
          • Unsu...
             
            Rodent, you are being just as "don't confuse me with facts, my mind's already made up" as you are accusing the "conspiracy theorists" of being.

            No matter what any one of us presents as a *possible* piece of evidence (not proven yet) regarding the 9/11 Conspiracy, you are so completely convinced already that it has been thoroughly (not condescendingly non-thoroughly which is actually the case) debunked by some credible authority with no bias. You're so sure it was Muslim terrorists who suspended the laws of physics and were aided by Allah in performing the most incredible miracle of all time.... using 2 airplanes to completely obliterate 3 steel-framed skyscrapers.

            Besides, what you and Uncle Fishbits are calling "debunkings" are just people poking (possible) holes in the "evidence" that's presented by the "conspiracy theorists".

            Last time I checked, finding possible holes isn't debunking. And as Chris just said, citing sources like the 9/11 Commission and other people/agencies who have strings directly attached to them - being pulled by the people who WE consider to be the real perpetrators.
            You have to understand - that just flies in one of our ears and right out the other. It has no sticking power because it's coming from worse than a biased source. It's coming right from the ventriloquists' mouths. It's a "this message has been approved" kind of thing.

            How hard is it to see that they've made it next to impossible for there to BE any evidence against them because they've almost completely removed all of the evidence there WAS before it could be investigated.

            One can argue... the removal of evidence was done for National Security reasons... well, what's such a threat to our national security about analyzing structural steel from the towers??? Why did they have it immediately recycled and scrapped?

            This discussion - although it's given us a chance to present some things in this forum and possibly generate more awareness - is pretty much a waste of energy and a tail-chase.

            You will NEVER convince me that 9/11 was the sole work of a couple dozen terrorists... some of whom are actually alive, well and working respectable jobs - victims of passport theft.

            And none of our points will impact your opinions.
            • Unsu...
               
              And because I'm pretty sure you will take the figure of speech ("don't confuse me with facts...") that I said above and run with it... I want to say: It's a figure of speech and I'm not saying that our assertions are facts. They very well might be truthful... we can't say for sure. But, that's kind of the source of this disagreement. We're saying that we *BELIEVE* these things. I'm not pretending that they're factual at this point. And I don't know if they could ever be "proven" beyond a shadow of a doubt to the skeptics because all of the evidence has been removed by who we believe to be the perpetrators.
            • > Muslim terrorists who suspended the laws of physics

              What laws of physics did they suspend?

              > performing the most incredible miracle of all time.... using 2 airplanes to completely obliterate 3 steel-framed skyscrapers.

              If one can use physics and structural engineering data to prove that I can be done, how can this be a miracle?

              > Last time I checked, finding possible holes isn't debunking

              And poking holes in the official report isn't?!?

              > because they've almost completely removed all of the evidence there WAS before it could be investigated.

              What evidence has been removed?

              > Why did they have it (structural steel) immediately recycled and scrapped?

              Well, wtf do you do with 350,000 TONNS!!!! of mangled steel?!? plus another MILLION TONNS of broken concrete and debris? The steel was not "immediately removed and recycled". For one, it took weeks to dig it out of the ground. For two, here is where some of the steel went (and will give you an idea of the scale of things) and a non federal agency examining the debris www.designaids.com/wtc/appendixd.html

              > sole work of a couple dozen terrorists... some of whom are actually alive, well and working respectable jobs - victims of passport theft.

              Who? (please, names).

              ---
              rodent (putting the eek in geek)
              • I adore this.

                I truly think this is the first heated, intelligent thread I have *ever* seen that hasn't degenerated into a mindless debacle of slurs and angry goading.

                THREE CHEERS BASSNECTAR PEOPLE! Open hearts, open minds, and just wanting to understand and help and love and fix ... it is really a beautiful thing.

                Unless someone called me names, cause I haven't read this... and need to catch up.

                Right now I am amping for tonite, so that is about that. Anyone wants a hug from a 6'6" guy with a beard in a cape, let me know.

                And me beard doesn't have a cape... but I do.

                nevermind.

                Anyhoo... this gives me hope that intelligent chat can exist.

                But two more things
                1) not sure who said it, but the idea of semantics being the underlying problem for discussions like this are dead on the nose. Good call, and that is why these discussions need to happen in the real world.
                2) Ethan?? I think? Pm'd me, and I want to publicly say... (his words were kind and thoughtful) that I never meant to call anyone out, be rude, or ever thought anyone was treating me as rude. Especially not him... I think it was just a way of pointing out the problem with conjecture in the form of words during a debate, because the receiver of the information can interpret them wildly different from how the originator of those thoughts meant them.

                <phew>

                love you... on to fixing the world through powerful thought and dance.
                Yay.
                • ACTUAL Freedom we were guaranteed by our Constitution. [quote[]

                  I thought thats what all my relatives from Syracuse were dying )have died) for!! (FREEDOM ISNT FREE-hate to say it but true in our world...... I am thinking of DENOUNCING my American citizenship...not only becasue we are SOO divided and no one knows what the HELL is going on...but because NO ONE will LIVE AND LET LIVE down there..Why do you think we have no suicide bombers here in Canda>? As a whiteboy..i am pretty much a minority in Van...yet.. wy we do not have violence-->LIVE AND LET LIVE...this thread should've died long ago./ if it is going to divide us further..we might as well LIVE and let LIVE knowing we all want peace!!!
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    NO WAY THIS WOULD DIVIDE US!

                    If I were too close minded a stodgy fat bastard... or if the others were too close minded about their views...

                    then it should have died. Then it COULD HAVE divided us.

                    All this thread has done was open my eyes to some other questions... and help me realize in the raging fights I see everywhere on the internet... this forum and tribe is full of patient, loving, open minded, critical, HUGE HEARTED people that want to make a difference in this fucked up administration, in this troubled world, in this wonderful country that we will fight to keep from becoming what we hate!!!!!!

                    Yup.. I love you people so much. Thanks for this discussion.

                    No division here. At least I don't think so?!?!?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     
                    Suplex,
                    I'm afraid that on this topic (9/11 & the WTC demolition) to "live and let live" is more like to "live and let die". I'm not comfortable letting this administration get away with whatever the hell they did on 9/11.

                    It's interesting to me that while a person is telling others to "live and let live", they're directly contradicting themself in one short sentence.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     
                    Forgot to mention, to say you "don't have violence" in Vancouver is misleading and not true.

                    www.discovervancouver.com/forum...ic.asp
                    • And to say as a whiteboy you are a minority? What in the bloody heck are you talking about!?!?

                      SERIOUSLY??!?!?!?!

                      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imag...couver.png

                      The chinese are 1/3 of whites, and the whites are over 50%. I spend a couple weeks a year up there, and not only do I think it is the bestest place on the fucking planet.... one of the reasons I haven't moved there is the lack of culture. First Nations aside, I think whitey is as whitey does up in your neck o the woods.
                      • Where i lived i was a monority!!...and no one treated me badly....and my neigbours were very firendly......
                        that is all i am saying.....

                        I really think you guys should go demonstrate and rally do something besides keeping this thread alive. I am sayign this becasue talking politics is lame for me right now....because i have right and left wingers in my family......and our views just divide us at times.... and we bicker and squabble ...It's IMPORTANT stuff...don't get me wrong. But i usually like dancing and talking about music at bassnectar events.....not squablling and bickering.
                        • Suplex... I do agree with that as an inherent problem with the internet discussions...

                          often I even find myself waiting to react... you know? Like.. remember when teachers would say that if your hand is raised, you aren't listening? Sometimes I will be reading, blinded by a comment someone said at the beginning of the thread.. and I want to comment (sort of a electronic hand goes up) and my ears or eyes go silent... I skim, I jump to conclusions... and I miss the point.

                          There is no accountability online... and it is more about stating one's views than being open to others.

                          I am not saying that for me.. or you.. or anyone on this tribe really. I wonder if you have any idea how intellectual and kind all of us are to each other compared to other threads... it is amazing how rude and belligerent people can be!

                          So I dig..... anyone that has these revolutionary views should not be defending their views against me... just like I feel open to new ideas, but I know what I believe... so does Eugene, Sayr... and I respect that.

                          But instead of a worthless thread, maybe it should be organizing, picketing, and protesting any chance you can get.

                          I realize the online world sucks my energy to do anything real, so I have pulled back off it. I am reading more, I am going for runs in golden gate park, etc... it is really quite lovely to turn off the machine and live in the real world. I like your post Suplex.

                          Let's stand united... and move on!
                        • Unsu...
                           
                          Suplex,

                          I lived in a specific area of Venice Beach (6th and Indiana) in the crack capital of L.A... My neighbors on all sides were mostly black. I was a minority in that neighborhood and I got along famously with my neighbors who were quite welcoming to me as well. They looked out for me. They would be handing me CD's to listen to over the fence in our yards - you know. We liked each other.

                          So it's not like "live and let live" only exists in Canada. It's alive and well all over the world.
                          If you were living and letting live, you wouldn't chime in and ask us to stop talking about shit we evidently *like* talking about.

                          >> "I really think you guys should go demonstrate and rally do something besides keeping this thread alive."

                          So yeah ~ my point exactly... who are you to say what you think we should be doing with our lives? Live and let live right?
                          And who's to say that this isn't a valid form of education. I'm learning shit about MYSELF from these discussions. I take in the reflections from all of you and incorporate them.

                          A political rally might very well be (but I'm not saying it is) more of a waste of energy than online discussion where the divine presence is every bit as alive as in a political rally. It bugs me to no end when close-minded people act like all things digital are dead and detached from reality... it's not true. That divine presence is there in everything and who's to say what is worthy and what is worthless for someone else?

                          >> "... But i usually like dancing and talking about music at bassnectar events...."

                          Perhaps in my Sicilian-Irish nature - I believe heated discussion is where some of the most potent magic happens. Through these discussions here on Tribe, (even through debate) I've learned more about a number of people I know and call friends than we would EVER learn about each other in a group setting... let alone, dancing at a frickin loud-ass party where we can't even connect at all.

                          Here in Cali, 9 times out of 10, there's no "talking" at bassnectar events... theres yelling... and/or everyone has earplugs in. Unless you wanna go outside and talk. And in that case, you may as well be at a park or... here talking online where you can be in your PJs, making coffee, chillin... whatever. You know?

                          This forum (online discussion in general) can be many things to many people and these moments might be very important to some people. Provided there is a certain level of mutual respect (which I believe there is between us - even in arguments).
                          it isn't a damaging thing to our lives and relationships with each other. If I ever met you or Uncle Fishbits in person, I would be happy to call you my friend and probably feel a deeper connection with you than if we hadn't shared in this interraction.

                          In person, people hold stuff back. Here, it could be said that people don't hold ANYTHING back.... well, certain people like me. :)
                          You can say that level of detachment and non-accountability is a negative thing, but in fact I believe it's quite the opposite. It's a powerful, new way for the illumination of hidden things (views, thoughts, emotions etc...) that otherwise would remain repressed.

                          As far as political rallies goes... um, I'd rather not have my name put on a list of dissidents or dissenters who may perhaps be the first to be hauled off to work camps. I've had too many friends end up in jail (remember the WTO rallies?) and probably on those lists to put my wife, future children and myself through that. And really, what do they have to show for it? If anything, it's not more than we have to show for our debates here.

                          There isn't just one way to be revolutionary and non-conventional. People don't have to be freaks, faeries and hippies to do that. I see alot of blatant conformity, narrow-mindedness and imitation happening in the freak community and I will do whatever I can to shed light on the dogmas, the high-horseyness and annoying double-standards that exist. All people are perfect... all people are worthy of their path. Everyone is their own saviour and you don't have to go to Burningman (or be a raw-foodist or talk about experimental IDM Glitch) to be saved.
                          • LOL....actually i am red neck concrete finisher..and yeah i am narrow minded..go to work already!
                            • wtc #7
                              that is all
                              • Unsu...
                                 
                                I know dude! That's what I'M saying... I can't accept that intelligent people actually believe (or will reluctantly swallow) the official WTC 7 story. I say "reluctantly swallow" because, **deep down** I believe that people KNOW it's totally ridiculous to think that some flaming debris from one of the other 2 towers struck WTC 7 and took that building all the way to the ground! Such a bad joke ~ I just don't get it.

                                To think about what kind of engineering flaws would have had to exist in order to cause enough of a failure to bring that thing down in less than 8 hours from a piece of debris. If you look at a top view of WTC 7's location:

                                911research.wtc7.net/wtc/att...ngs.html

                                ... it's quite obvious that there were other buildings that would have sustained more damage.

                                The skeptics say that the videos of WTC 7's collapse (that 9/11 "conspiracy theorists" choose to focus on) are misleading because they don't show the side of the building that was gutted out from fire and falling debris. Even still. The way it falls is so straight. If one side had been weakened... what would one imagine it would have looked like when it collapsed. Would it fall straight down? I don't think so. If what they're saying were true... and it had a weakened structure on one side, it would have tipped over. Not fell into it's footprint so symmetrically.
                                • I'm sorry, but you conspiracy theory nuts are pushing it on this one.

                                  DO you know how much debris came down with each of those two buildings? I'm surprised it didn't destroy every fucking building within 12 blocks. Those things were massive. The fact that anyone lived withon 5 blocks is absolutely astounding.

                                  What a bunch of kooks.
                                  • Unsu...
                                     
                                    Tony,

                                    The debris that came down from those two buildings DID in fact nearly destroy (caused massive damage to) many of the buildings within the peripheral area. What the debris DIDN'T do was cause the other steel-framed skyscrapers to conveniently collapse to the ground. Just look at the video of WTC 7 collapsing. Have you really looked at those videos AT ALL? If so, you have no right to call everyone a kook who believes there's more to the story than what they're telling us. Come on!

                                    And as for the peripheral damage to other buildings, If you look at the "after" picture I linked to in my previous post, you can see pretty much how far outward the significant damage occurred. You can also see anomalies by looking at that picture in the fact that WTC 7's location makes it highly unlikely to be the ONLY other building to have fallen. Basically, if one were to seriously look at ALL factors, they won't be believing the official story and they'd be better off believing the "conspiracy theory nuts" because their story is much more plausible.

                                    And obviously you were seriously exaggerating when you said "12 blocks", right?? B'cuz if not, then no wonder you're not surprised... and no wonder you buy the official story.

                                    1/3 of Americans who were polled are highly suspicious of 9/11 being a government conspiracy. And it makes perfect sense. If we were given better information, that percentage would be alot higher I would imagine. There are alot of concerned "kooks" out there I guess.

                                    What would you say if you found out the kooks were right?
                                    • Unsu...
                                       
                                      What I meant was:

                                      "And obviously you were seriously exaggerating when you said "12 blocks", right?? B'cuz if not, then no wonder you're surprised... and no wonder you buy the official story."
                                      • "you have no right to call everyone a kook"

                                        Actually he does. Thats freedom of speach. He has the right to be as callus, pompouse and reactionary as he wants to be.

                                        Keep it up Tony. You validate our freedoms with every opinionated accusation you sling.

                                        I thank you, and your country thanks you as well.

                                        <Salute>
                                        • On BBC 2 Sunday Feb. 18th, 2007, they ran a show debunking the conspiracy behind 911. They were wrong though, as they said the buildings collapsed in a pancake fashion, on layer, then the next, etc...

                                          Problem is, the math doesn't add up. IF the buildings indeed collapsed because of the plane hits (the buildings were designed to survive such an accident), well then, why did the buildings fall at near freefall speed? If they were to fall as the story says, then it would have taken over a minute to collapse totally, these buildings were at under or around 10 seconds.

                                          Also, the firefighters who were on the scene, many claim to have heard bombs going off, and if that's not enough, why did tower 7 fall? As Silverstein said to "pull it", could mean to empty the building, or to demolish it.

                                          OH yeah, Marvin Bush, bro of the prez, he was in charge of security until that fateful day, when his contract ran out. Coincidence?

                                          I just want to hear the truth for a change, but not from politicians, from an independent source. Politicians are liars...
                                          • cognitive illusions

                                            Thu, March 15, 2007 - 8:07 PM
                                            If you aren't a expert in the field, I think it is silly to make assumptions like "but they were wrong" or trying to figure out collapse time.

                                            Anyhoo.. I called the believers stupid at one point, which I apologize profusely for. Well, I was thinking about THE SECRET.. and this... and the whole cognitive illusion thing.

                                            So it is important to remember that it takes time to work on the hearts and souls of people's ability to perceive the world.

                                            Anyone's critical faculties can be clouded by the emotive.... or the imperceptible component of the brain that is the will to believe. There are some that believe in religion. Those that don't, believe in the government, those that don't believe in counterculturalism, ad naseoum... (it isn't exactly like that, but you get the drift... we all believe in something).

                                            And we are all susceptible to cognitive illusions. Just like we hallucinate visually, we can do so mentally.

                                            think about this:

                                            When the tokyo subway bombing happened, and we exposed that crazy cult of wackos??? On their roster were chemists, nuclear physicists, rocket scientists....

                                            That people are fallible, and we are innately human, is obvious.

                                            But to remember that intelligence and our will to believe are wholly seperate entities of our mind... is important.

                                            Still.. the Secret is LAME.

                                            When will Oprah wake up and realize she is a brainwashed white housewife like her audience?
                                            (so ascends her legal team from the spires of hell)
                                            • Re: cognitive illusions & the Conspiracy BullShit

                                              Wed, March 21, 2007 - 12:07 AM
                                              Hello All,

                                              First let me point out that I will not engender many friends here...I know. And second allow me to point out that I believe that someone high up and who was completely capable of preventing the WTC attacks from ocurring didn't prevent it for personal, greedy and political agendae. However, I also believe, as I have PERSONALLY STUDIED THE EVENT, the physics and other matters which most of you have not heard about, are unaware of and will probably never even give a hoot about knowing...the WTC was attacked exactly as most of us all witnessed on television. The conspirators who claim that the WTC towers fell straight down due to controlled demolition are a bunch of fucking ignorant babblers, in my opinion. What most do not understand is that the WTC would have fallen straight down for any reason, whether it be from controlled demolition, raging fires, basement blasts, LASER beam attacks from space or simply structure collapse...all due simply to the architecture of design. People relying on videos of the windows blowing out as 'evidence' of controlled demolition, apparently have never seen a luxury liner (1930's filming of Nazi u-boat sinkings on the Atlantic) sinking, or tornados engaging high-rise buildings. The matter regarding the 'falling' as moving faster than gravity is also non-physics based fantasy. These conspirators look like idiots to the educated. High-School cheerleaders taking physics know better. I will not apologize to the believers, however, I also suspect that the WTC event was afore known and could have been prevented...it was a conspiracy, but not for the babbling reasons most would have us believe. And until we get our facts straight, few outside of conspiracy-land will believe us or take action.

                                              I will not go into all of the reasons why I beleive or disbelieve as I do, except to say, that I have been approached by documentary film producers who support both sides of the controversy. All I am willing to say is this, the buildings fell exactly as stated by the authorities, in my opinion, there were no controlled demolition involved (don't believe me, call a demolition company as I did and ASK THEIR EXPERT OPINION). I do believe that US Military Remote Viewers as well as the Isralie Moussade was completely aware of the probability of the event ocurring. I believe, as derived from CNN live reports which I saw, that the Isralie Intelligence were completely aware of the planned attack and chose not disclose that information to US Intelligence, in their hopes to draw American interests into their fight against Arabs.

                                              I disfavor American Miltary being in Iraq, I do not support Bu$h or his oil-based family interests and personally I feel that US activities in Iran will not excerbate hostilities between the US Christians and the Muslims, but will eventually cause World War Three, eventing in nuclear holocaust of civilization.

                                              Support our Troops, bring them home. Kick that fucking maniac Bu$h and his greedy corrupt self serving administration out of office.

                                              Use Love as the Standard through which you guide your Life.

                                              Love

                                              walt

                                              Need I say more?

                                              walt
                                              • sort of spamming sort of... thoughts from one thread led to another... I think it went, "What the bleep, to the secret, to astrology, to AIDS/HIV Revisionists, to 9/11 truth seeking conspiracy theorists ----

                                                "just wrote this about something else.... and was thinking... why would I have a conversation with someone who believes in something, but continually ignores the fact they don't understand how the world functions.. or what they are talking about. And I don't mean cats blowing hot air... i just mean, people talking about physics and mimicking things they heard that sound good, without having any REAL knowledge at ALL.

                                                It is like those 9/11 truth conspiracy theorists.... they simply don't have a clue. They are NOT construction or demolition experts, they are not explosive experts, or structural engineers....

                                                And people that believe in astrology, BLINDLY... without asking any *REAL* questions.

                                                It is the need to believe.... to believe in the face of lack of belief. The lack of belief is a void to many... a deep dark faithless hole. TO ME? It is like a den or a nest where I can always return and know I am safe.

                                                anyhoooo the will to believe!
                                                =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

                                                The Need For Belief....

                                                Sure.... to believe in crap is still belief... but it is touchy when you tell people they are wrong. And has nothing to do with intelligence. So we can't cop out and simply say "they are dumb". This cat isn't an idiot... he is exploring his capacity for faith based belief... rejecting the authoritative staples and searching for his own answers.

                                                The secret is lame. Like, incredibly lame.

                                                BUT.. one of my friends called the "individual believer" stupid. Like this cat above... and I think I agree with Matthew all the time... but this got me thinking.

                                                THE SECRET *is* a load of crap.. but if you address someone directly about the most cherished of their beliefs.. politics, religion, etc.... you will close them down and make them angrier and more defensive through slander, right?

                                                So it is important to remember that it takes time to work on the hearts and souls of people's ability to perceive the world.

                                                Anyone's critical faculties can be clouded by the emotive....

                                                And we are all susceptible to cognitive illusions. Just like we hallucinate visually, we can do so mentally.

                                                think about this:

                                                When the tokyo subway bombing happened, and we exposed that crazy cult of wackos??? On their roster were chemists, nuclear physicists, rocket scientists....

                                                That people are fallible, and we are innately human, is obvious.

                                                But to remember that intelligence and our will to believe are wholly separate entities of our mind... is important."
                                                • i dont quite think that you people know what is happening in the world right now.
                                                  TOTAL AND COMPLETE DOMINATION BY THE UN!
                                                  one world government.
                                                  how does that sound to you guys...
                                                  a world where anybody can go anywhere, unless you dont have a world ID card/biometric data/implant chip.
                                                  a world where no one will have access to the forests we so love,
                                                  no more cars, and everybody rides trains.
                                                  its happening right now, and there is 15 states fighting it, although the media and federal government have stated that they have no jurisdiction to say anything about it.
                                                  and as for bush, he has turned his back on this, a full 180 from the huge amount of money that he made for Halliburton, who as i type are building "detainment facilities" that are fully staffed, yet empty.
                                                  the plan from the UN, of which FEMA is the national arm for america, is to stir up the shit so much that they will execute Martial Law.
                                                  and the UN army will be here with bells on.
                                                  find more by searching for SPP- security and prosperity partnership.
                                                  we are going thru the looking-glass
                                                  all of this has been a plan, headed by officials from every country, with unknown ties to ???
                                                  research also Agenda 21, the sustainable development mess the UN is trying to get us into.
                                                  and dont get mad at each other, cuz were all we got.
  • Unsu...
     
    I am just in shock about all of this.

    Thank you for sharing, i have recently been reading up on these events, trying to understand what might have happened.

    I also find it interesting that one of G.W.'s best friends in the military was a financial advisor for Saudis investing in Texas.

    Also interesting is that after Regan fired the air traffic controllers back in 1980, it was illegal for them to work in the US as ATCs. However, there was one country in the world that would hire them... albeit with a very small salary... which country was it? You got it, Saudi Arabia. So this country got a sudden "virtual FAA", i.e. a bunch of highly trained, highly skilled technicians, without having to pay for them. And the US Air traffic suffered for it, resulting in many accidents and deaths shortly after the firing. Was this some type of kick-back to the Saudis? Perhaps....

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